Old and New Convenant
-
Has the New Convenant replaced the Old Convenant, making the latter null and void?
-
technically no.
The Old Covenant was for the Jews.
The New Covenant is for gentiles.
So they don't affect each another. -
But isnt the New Convenant meant for Both Jews and Gentiles. in the New Convenant, such distinctions are no longer used???Originally posted by Icemoon:technically no.
The Old Covenant was for the Jews.
The New Covenant is for gentiles.
So they don't affect each another. -
Hmm.... Old Covenant? which one hah?
The one with Noah?
The one with Abraham?
The one with Moses?
The one with David?
.....etc -
The one made to the Jews.Originally posted by vince69:Hmm.... Old Covenant? which one hah?
The one with Noah?
The one with Abraham?
The one with Moses?
The one with David?
.....etc -
But the law of Moses cannot be void.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:But isnt the New Convenant meant for Both Jews and Gentiles. in the New Convenant, such distinctions are no longer used???
Actually in the New Testament, we still see Jews obeying the Old Covenant .. no?
I tell you a secret. If you understand this secret, everything will be much clearer.
The secret is that once Jews embrace Christianity and dispose of the Old Covenant, they are not "Jews" anymore. It is like Marx embracing atheism. Do you consider him a Jew? So how it works is like this - once you give up your Jewish identity, then you are out of the circle. -
But when Christ died, the temple curtains ripped into 2. And that New Convenant is the fulfilment of the Old. To reject the New, is to reject the old.Originally posted by Icemoon:But the law of Moses cannot be void.
Actually in the New Testament, we still see Jews obeying the Old Covenant .. no?
I tell you a secret. If you understand this secret, everything will be much clearer.
The secret is that once Jews embrace Christianity and dispose of the Old Covenant, they are not "Jews" anymore. It is like Marx embracing atheism. Do you consider him a Jew? So how it works is like this - once you give up your Jewish identity, then you are out of the circle. -
how did the new fulfill the old then?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:But when Christ died, the temple curtains ripped into 2. And that New Convenant is the fulfilment of the Old. To reject the New, is to reject the old. -
To void a covenant, is a very serious thing, for God to void a covenant with His people, is to means that He had to go back on His own words. This goes against the very nature of Himself.
-
The new covenant is the blood of Jesus which was shed for the remission of sins. The old covenant depends on the blood of bulls and goats which cannot take away sins. So the new fulfills the old and is better. I think the latter is null and void cos nobody by burning animal sacrifices or offering animal blood can be forgiven anymore but only by the blood of Jesus which was shed once for all.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Has the New Convenant replaced the Old Convenant, making the latter null and void? -
The part in red is bull.Originally posted by Raptured:The new covenant is the blood of Jesus which was shed for the remission of sins. The old covenant depends on the blood of bulls and goats which cannot take away sins. So the new fulfills the old and is better. I think the latter is null and void cos nobody by burning animal sacrifices or offering animal blood can be forgiven anymore but only by the blood of Jesus which was shed once for all.
The blood of the animal sacrifice CAN take away sins. Who says cannot?
Nobody burns animal sacrifice because the Temple is no longer standing. Please read the Messianic verses in the Old Testament. During the last days, animal sacrifice WILL resume.
You obviously never read Hosea. What did Hosea say? I dunno which verse but what he said is etched in my mind - render for bulls the offering of our lips.
You don't need me to explain the meaning, do you? -
The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God - Heb 7:18
Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). 9Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He abolish the first to establish the second. 10And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. - Heb 10:8-10
For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. - Heb 8:7 -
Pls see Pope Nick's quote. Thanks.Originally posted by Icemoon:The part in red is bull.
The blood of the animal sacrifice CAN take away sins. Who says cannot?
Nobody burns animal sacrifice because the Temple is no longer standing. Please read the Messianic verses in the Old Testament. During the last days, animal sacrifice WILL resume.
You obviously never read Hosea. What did Hosea say? I dunno which verse but what he said is etched in my mind - render for bulls the offering of our lips.
You don't need me to explain the meaning, do you? -
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Has the New Convenant replaced the Old Convenant, making the latter null and void?
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah--
Heb 8:9 "not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD.
Heb 8:10 "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.<----------it did vanish away years later when God allowed the Temple which the Old Covenant was so closely related to be destroyed.
Those verses above will be fulfilled when Christ returns to reign for a thousand years. All the glorious prophecies concerning Israel will be fulfilled to the letter when the Glorified KIng comes.
Ro 9:4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;
In the sovereign plan of God, in the interim period, God has called out a people for His name to constitute the body of Christ--- the Church<---------they are now the beneficiaries of the spiritual blessings of that New Covenant.
When the fullness of the Gentiles has come in to constitute the Chuch, teh Savior will come and saved Israel:
Ro 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Ro 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
Ro 11:27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
Remember: the only covenant delineated in the Bible that has a remission of sins clause in it is the New Covenant. It was ratified at Christ's death, it will be enacted at His Coming in the Melinium.
NOte: The blood of Christ shed on the cross is not the New Covenant. It was the blood necesarry to ratify thta New covenant.
Mt 26:28 "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. -
to be fair, Icemoon is correct,Originally posted by Icemoon:The part in red is bull.
The blood of the animal sacrifice CAN take away sins. Who says cannot?
Nobody burns animal sacrifice because the Temple is no longer standing. Please read the Messianic verses in the Old Testament. During the last days, animal sacrifice WILL resume.
You obviously never read Hosea. What did Hosea say? I dunno which verse but what he said is etched in my mind - render for bulls the offering of our lips.
You don't need me to explain the meaning, do you?
The Temple sacrifice (sin offerings), is able to take away sins, the only 'weakness' is that this is temporal, in that it have to be repeated on a yearly basis. The reason I think is that bulls and goats are temporal.
This is a process of 'exchange', in that the sins of person doing offering laid his hands on the animal, in which his sins were put onto the animal, and in exchange the acceptance of the animal is transfered to him (this is a simple way to explain things).
The same is repeated in Christ Jesus, being the perfect lamb of God, sacrificed as our sin offering, being eternal, His sacrifice have a eternal effect.
-
That pretty much explains the Sacrifice of Mass. haha.Originally posted by vince69:to be fair, Icemoon is correct,
The Temple sacrifice (sin offerings), is able to take away sins, the only 'weakness' is that this is temporal, in that it have to be repeated on a yearly basis. The reason I think is that bulls and goats are temporal.
This is a process of 'exchange', in that the sins of person doing offering laid his hands on the animal, in which his sins were put onto the animal, and in exchange the acceptance of the animal is transfered to him (this is a simple way to explain things).
The same is repeated in Christ Jesus, being the perfect lamb of God, sacrificed as our sin offering, being eternal, His sacrifice have a eternal effect. -
God says He desire mercy and not sacrifice.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:That pretty much explains the Sacrifice of Mass. haha.
Isn't it ironic the Father sacrifices the Son? -
To be fair, when there is no Temple, there can be no sacrifice.Originally posted by vince69:The Temple sacrifice (sin offerings), is able to take away sins, the only 'weakness' is that this is temporal, in that it have to be repeated on a yearly basis. The reason I think is that bulls and goats are temporal.
This is a process of 'exchange', in that the sins of person doing offering laid his hands on the animal, in which his sins were put onto the animal, and in exchange the acceptance of the animal is transfered to him (this is a simple way to explain things).
So tell me, what is the substitute for sacrifice when the First Temple was destroyed? -
Actually sin offerings can only atone for the most trivial kind of sins.Originally posted by vince69:to be fair, Icemoon is correct,
The Temple sacrifice (sin offerings), is able to take away sins, the only 'weakness' is that this is temporal, in that it have to be repeated on a yearly basis.
Christians read the Old Testament but pretend not to notice that heh?
It follows that the Christian argument for having Jesus Christ as atonement is built on shaky foundation. -
or you can say .... God sacrifices God ...Originally posted by Icemoon:God says He desire mercy and not sacrifice.
Isn't it ironic the Father sacrifices the Son? -
I think i need to read Aquinas more LOLOriginally posted by vince69:or you can say .... God sacrifices God ... -
not really,Originally posted by Icemoon:Actually sin offerings can only atone for the most trivial kind of sins.
Christians read the Old Testament but pretend not to notice that heh?
It follows that the Christian argument for having Jesus Christ as atonement is built on shaky foundation.
sin offering is for all sins ... yes ... all, not just trivial kind ...
this is for the person to make it right with God (vertical relationship)
now as for the those wrongs he did to others, there is another set of 'rulings' or what the Catholics term as penance, this is to make it right with fellow man (horizontal relationship). -
Actually the idea itself is a beauty.Originally posted by vince69:or you can say .... God sacrifices God ...
The second person of the Trinity giving up His life for His elect in the covenant of redemption.
Wow .. now we even have covenant between Jesus and the Father.
-
Nope. Sin offering only atones for the most trivial kind of sins. The Torah is clear on this!Originally posted by vince69:not really,
sin offering is for all sins ... yes ... all, not just trivial kind ...
this is for the person to make it right with God (vertical relationship)
Please read Numbers 15.NIV:
Please count the number of times 'unintentional' (and its grammatical variants) is highlighted.
22 " 'Now if you unintentionally fail to keep any of these commands the LORD gave Moses- 23 any of the LORD's commands to you through him, from the day the LORD gave them and continuing through the generations to come- 24 and if this is done unintentionally without the community being aware of it, then the whole community is to offer a young bull for a burnt offering as an aroma pleasing to the LORD, along with its prescribed grain offering and drink offering, and a male goat for a sin offering. 25 The priest is to make atonement for the whole Israelite community, and they will be forgiven, for it was not intentional and they have brought to the LORD for their wrong an offering made by fire and a sin offering. 26 The whole Israelite community and the aliens living among them will be forgiven, because all the people were involved in the unintentional wrong.
27 " 'But if just one person sins unintentionally, he must bring a year-old female goat for a sin offering. 28 The priest is to make atonement before the LORD for the one who erred by sinning unintentionally, and when atonement has been made for him, he will be forgiven. 29 One and the same law applies to everyone who sins unintentionally, whether he is a native-born Israelite or an alien.
30 " 'But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or alien, blasphemes the LORD, and that person must be cut off from his people. 31 Because he has despised the LORD's word and broken his commands, that person must surely be cut off; his guilt remains on him.' " -
actually, this is not new idea,Originally posted by Icemoon:Actually the idea itself is a beauty.
The second person of the Trinity giving up His life for His elect in the covenant of redemption.
Wow .. now we even have covenant between Jesus and the Father.
the Abrahamic covenant is cut not between God and Abraham (though Abraham benefited from it), if one were to read it (as in the OT), the covenant is cut while Abraham is sleeping, the two person that cut the covenant appears in 'a pillar of smoke' and 'a pillar of fire'.
meaning, both end of the covenant, God Himself keep, Abraham just enjoy the benefits.
Genesis 15:17 (NASV)
It came about when the sun had set, that it was very dark, and behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a flaming torch which passed between these pieces.