But how to get this type of assurance when someone is sinning and yet confesses Jesus is Lord and Saviour of his/her life? How deep is God's grace? Will God allow him/her to go thru the tribulation bcos he/she happened to be not worthy at the time of rapture altho saved by grace? Salvation = rapture or salvation <> rapture? Or salvation = no sin or less sins or salvation does not depend on amt of sins? Confusing. Contradicting to me.Originally posted by vince69:it simply says ..
When God said it is , He really meant it is.
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Ephesians 1:13-14
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.
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by the way, what type of assurance do you think there is in salvation?
Christ paid for it, God marked you in it, the Holy Spirit guarantee it.... still not enough assurance meh?
its may be sound simple but its actually hard for many to accept.
No you answered quite well just that i don't get it sometimes.Originally posted by vince69:we are talking about two different group of people here
1) those who profess that they are Christian, yet they live a life of sin and had no desire of repentance. to this, I would really question their confession, as in have they really put their faith in Christ or just treat Him like a fire inssurance.
2) those who had really received Christ as their savior, and had a desire to live a life according in Christ. now this group of people, though they may fall once in a while, sin once in a while, its no longer natural to them. To this group, I will say, the conversion is real, though sin may be committed and may even fell, they fell in Christ, hence still in Christ by grace.
What about lukewarm or backslidden Christian? What about Christian who happen to sin during the time of rapture?
ok, assuming you are right, they are Christian, then my take is that they aill still be saved, cause its really boils down to How faithful God is.
my apology for my lack of proficency in expression that may cause confussion.
Again you mix up the second coming with the rapture. This verse is talking about the second coming which everybody knows so how can it be that Jesus come like a thief in the night when everybody knows? So during rapture nobody knows the date as He will come unexpectedly. It is talking about two diff events. Day of the Lord is actually a length of time starting with the rapture of the Christians and ending with the second coming of Jesus. You are a bit confusing or is scripture contradicting itself? How can Jesus come like a thief when everybody knows when He comes?Originally posted by Skibi:Lets look at the verse again.
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2 Peter 3:10 NIV
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.
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First half - the day of the Lord will come like a thief.
Second half - the heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.
Nobody will know? Fire destroying everything, heavens disappearing with a roar, the earth laid bare. Think again.
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Originally posted by Raptured:
Jesus won't beat up His bride before He takes her to heaven.
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I want to stress that it it Satan that brings suffering on God's followers. However instead of getting beat up, the true followers of God will emerge stronger than ever from the trials and triumph over the Devil.
sorry, seems like I had missed this oneOriginally posted by Devils_advocate:But how to get this type of assurance when someone is sinning and yet confesses Jesus is Lord and Saviour of his/her life? How deep is God's grace? Will God allow him/her to go thru the tribulation bcos he/she happened to be not worthy at the time of rapture altho saved by grace? Salvation = rapture or salvation <> rapture? Or salvation = no sin or less sins or salvation does not depend on amt of sins? Confusing. Contradicting to me.
Ok, God's grace is very deep but then why did He punish Israel time and again? He never changes right so won't He also punish Christians who keep sinning? Contradiction?Originally posted by vince69:sorry, seems like I had missed this one
I think I have the first part on the assurance part covered.
How deep is God's grace? don't worry, God's grace is inexhaustable, meaning there is no limit to His grace.
Will God allow him/her to go thru the tribulation? make it this way, noone is worthy if apart from Christ, those in Christ are made worthy not because of themselves but rather because of Christ.
Salvation <> Rapture, two very different event.
Salvation <> no sin, Salvation = being able to be with God, by being made acceptable and declared righteous by God, this is through the blood of Christ.
cheers.
its is, and its not easy to explain, just have to experience it to really understand.Originally posted by Devils_advocate:Ok, God's grace is very deep but then why did He punish Israel time and again? He never changes right so won't He also punish Christians who keep sinning? Contradiction?
Ok, but as you said, salvation <> rapture so being saved doesn't mean one auto gets raptured pre-trib. Sigh I wish I could know the truth for the truth will set me free. I wish God could speak to me and tell me for sure.
But you said, salvation <> no sin, so sins won't stop one from being raptured or saved, so can one continue to sin like mad although a Christian? He/she knows he/she is a Christian but always sins then repent then sin and sin then repent and repent etc and the cycle goes on. When will it stop? At death or rapture?
Sorry for all the confusion. It's just like Paul's Roman 7 exp. Things we don't want to do we do. Things we should do we don't do. Alamak! May God help us! Come quickly Jesus!
1) Believe is one thing but the ability to follow is another. Can God condemn us for not being able to follow all His laws esp since His grace is very very very deep? For eg, I believe in my earthly father but i keep getting into trouble and going to jail bcos of some drug addiction that i can never kick, so will my father disown me even though I am unrepentant but tried to change? NO. But I would like to hear your views.Originally posted by vince69:its is, and its not easy to explain, just have to experience it to really understand.
recap from what I had said earlier,
1) a persistence sinner (maybe even self professed as a christian), does he really believe Christ as his Savior and Lord or just a fire insurrance? if its just the latter, is he really a christian (ie. a christian is one who belong to Christ)?
2) we sinned when we failed to meet God's standard or follow God's instructions, when we are saved, and since we still remains in the mortal body, like Paul's lamentation that we are constantly struggling to resist the temptation to sin, do we still fall? of course, we do, even the Apostle Paul did (else why he lament about it?). But then for us who are born again in Christ, it have become an un-natural thing for us to sin (though it was once natural for us when we are still in darkness), hence in my previous statement : For us who are in Christ, even when we fall, we fall in Christ.
OK, to your question, when we sin, will there be punishment?
The Bible clearly says that God discipline those He loved, so how? Yes, He may discipline us, but only because He loved us and care. Just like pur parents discipline us because they care and loved us and wanted the best for us.
Did God punished Israel? yes, but God did not abandon nor forsake Israel. God's covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob still stand.
these are just my understanding, hope they help answer your question, the best thing is to check these against the Bible and see if what I said is right or wrong.
cheers.
oh... forgot
Salvation is a gift you received from God through Christ
Rapture is an event where a believer is brought up to be with Christ (some theologian may dispute when this is going to happen or how is going to happen or if its going to happen at all)
Thats why I say Salvation <> Rapture
Salvation <> no sin.
If no sin, then why need salvation? This is not to say that there is only one person that is without sin, and that is Christ Jesus, our Lord. The rest of us, all have sins.
If Salvation = no sin, then all of us would have been disqualified, would we?
Originally posted by Devils_advocate:There are no ambiguities in the bible. The fastest way to gain the whole truth is to throw away what the church teaches and read the bible for yourself. Why accept the fallible teachings of mortals when you can have God guide you himself?
I am sorry Vince if i repeat and repeat bcos I get very confused and don't get it. Why did God leave so much ambiguities in the bible for us to figure out? No wonder so many rapture positions and 1000s of denominations. All very sincere and all depending on the Holy Spirit. Is the Spirit split? Is the church a broken body? Are we going to be raptured up separately at diff time intervals as some put forward? This group goes first then next then next. Many raptures and resurrections like in Revelations. But how can it be? **Scratch head**
hope I am not confusing you.Originally posted by Devils_advocate:1) Believe is one thing but the ability to follow is another. Can God condemn us for not being able to follow all His laws esp since His grace is very very very deep? For eg, I believe in my earthly father but i keep getting into trouble and going to jail bcos of some drug addiction that i can never kick, so will my father disown me even though I am unrepentant but tried to change? NO. But I would like to hear your views.
Like what you had just said, do you think your heavenly Father will disown His own?
2) But we still sin right? Just that our status has changed positionally. If it's unnatural why we still sin? It's natural for the flesh to sin am i right? Even Paul said in Romans 7. But can we stop sinning? Is there a way? I don't like sins and sinning.
if its unnatural, why do we sin, do remember we are still in this inperfect world, physically in this fallen body, till the Lord's return, we will still have to struggle with this issue, but do not be dishearten, and continue to fight a good fight. Is there a way to stop sinning? prayers, flee from temption, ...etc for some.. its not impossible, just sometimes may be difficult, and other times, just unintentional. and yes, neither do I like to sin.
I see that it's defn of salvation and rapture but what i mean is could salvation lead to rapture or not? As you said salvation is a free gift. Is rapture a free gift also? Bcos so many places in the NT God and Jesus warns about not watching, getting drunk and beating fellow servants, living like the heathen in Noah's time eating and drinking and in Lot's time planting and building, parables warning of disobedience like the parable of talents, parable of wise and foolish virgins etc etc. It seems so work related. That we must earn to go up in rapture like keeping holy and watching. Would like to hear your views.
Rapture is not a gift, its an event, as in something that may happen (depending on how you see it), but know that at the end, be it term as rapture or not, we will still be with the Lord just as we are in Him.
1) reading the Bible is not enough, if you want, you need to study the Bible to have better understanding. Also, pray and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you.Originally posted by Skibi:There are no ambiguities in the bible. The fastest way to gain the whole truth is to throw away what the church teaches and read the bible for yourself. Why accept the fallible teachings of mortals when you can have God guide you himself?
How to confirm i am saved? Can I pray the sinner's prayer again and again? Can I pray for forgiveness again and again? Bcos I committed many sins and big sins even when I consider myself a Christian. Sins which God cannot forgive bcos I knew the truth and yet I sinned just like Judas Iscariot. I have repented of many but I still have some sins left. Have I lost my salvation?Originally posted by vince69:hope I am not confusing you.
You only need to say the 'sinner's prayer' once.Originally posted by Devils_advocate:How to confirm i am saved? Can I pray the sinner's prayer again and again? Can I pray for forgiveness again and again? Bcos I committed many sins and big sins even when I consider myself a Christian. Sins which God cannot forgive bcos I knew the truth and yet I sinned just like Judas Iscariot. I have repented of many but I still have some sins left. Have I lost my salvation?
Maybe follow Catholic church do some indulgence and penance to atone for my sins. Have I really lost my salvation? Have I blasphemed against the Holy Spirit bcos I was willfully sinning? You see so many sin words here, full of sins! Can the blood of Jesus still save a blasphemer like me? Oh wretched man that I am! Why was I born?
hi bro,Originally posted by Devils_advocate:1) Believe is one thing but the ability to follow is another. Can God condemn us for not being able to follow all His laws esp since His grace is very very very deep? For eg, I believe in my earthly father but i keep getting into trouble and going to jail bcos of some drug addiction that i can never kick, so will my father disown me even though I am unrepentant but tried to change? NO. But I would like to hear your views.
Originally posted by vince69:You misunderstand. It is God who is infallible. A few days of study under God is worth far more than all the study accumulated in the lifetimes of mortals.
1) reading the Bible is not enough, if you want, you need to study the Bible to have better understanding. Also, pray and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you.
2) to say to throw away what the church teaches since these are fallible teachings of mortal man, is to say
a) you are immortal, else your own study is also fallible.
b) pride, in that you are saying your few days of study better than others who had spent their life time studying?
Originally posted by vince69:I am telling you to go for your exam with God as the teacher.
Further more, your position is like telling students to just go for exams without the need to ever go to school or to be taught by teachers, cause they can just study the text books for themselves.
Originally posted by vince69:Jesus said to his disciples who have been studying under him...
No, rather, study their teachings, try to understand their teachings, learn from their experiences, but do also questions on Why they says this way, How do they come to this conclusions/positions, compare with the Scriptures and see if what they are saying is inline or not. In doing so, you may find wealth of knowledge among their teachings.
Matthew 10:16 NIVIf Jesus still considered the apostles who have learned the truths directly under him as "sheep" then what about us? You are suggesting to people that never met Jesus or have any proper foundation in the bible to go off by themselves among the 36,000 heretical denominations* like sheep among wolves?
I am sending you out like sheep among wolves.
Luke 10:3 NIV
Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves.
Matthew 7:15 NIV*originally posted by Pope Nicholas
[ A Tree and Its Fruit ] "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
How do i know the above you said is not from the "fallible teachings of mortal" like yourself ?Originally posted by Skibi:There are no ambiguities in the bible. The fastest way to gain the whole truth is to throw away what the church teaches and read the bible for yourself. Why accept the fallible teachings of mortals when you can have God guide you himself?
Been praying but very tired. No answer for very very long time. I keep asking for forgiveness and for God to accept me once more. I would like to warn everyone in Christ not to go overboard with sin or they will end up in "hell" literally.Originally posted by vince69:You only need to say the 'sinner's prayer' once.
do you know about the woman caught in adultery? what did Jesus said to her?
"Neither do I condemn you, now go and sin no more"
noticed its no condemnation first, then go sin no more.
Know that there is no condemnation, and in knowing this find the strength in Christ to change and also give you the courage to aproach God's throne of grace.
hear the cry of the the Apostle Paul, 'O what a wretched man I am, who can deliver me? ... Thanks be to God, the answer is Christ Jesus.
Now, I do not know your past, but I do know that my God is faithful. I do not know what you had done or had been through, but I know the Christ is able.
The question is, will you allow Christ to help you? if you want, just ask Him. yes, He will hear your prayer and know your heart desire.
But no matter how I wash or clean still not clean. That's why I always realise how dirty i am. That's why wretched. That's why I highly esteem the blood of Jesus. But am I worthy? Am I presuming on His grace? Am I abusing the blood?Originally posted by klydeer:hi bro,
what does "keeping holy" means to you ? Is it more of a "washing" ourselves clean, or realising how "dirty" we are...so that we know how to clean ? God is Holy. When we come to Him more and more, do we also realise how "dirty" we are.... ? Even the "tiny" things...?
why do you think the Apostle Paul calls himself the worst of sinners in 1 Timothy 1:16 ?
"But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life"
Do we remember that the core of Christianity is redemption through the blood of Christ and salvation is not instant cup noodle ? Rather, the journey of salvation is very much tied with the building of a relationship with God. Whether at the end of it, those who claimed Jesus as their Lord, have or have not "shown" it....perhaps only God knows it truely of their heart and with that He will Judge according to His ways.
Our call is our devotion to the Gospel of Christ and to proclaim it to whom we are also called to love.
Pls explain. So the rapture for 144,000 people only? I thot it's for the Jews. Is it pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib or pre-wrath?Originally posted by popmynutsy:i thought that it is for the 144000 tribe people only. i got this booklet about it. answer all about it.
actually, its this fear of condemnation by God that drives people away from God and prevent people from receiving grace from God.Originally posted by Devils_advocate:Been praying but very tired. No answer for very very long time. I keep asking for forgiveness and for God to accept me once more. I would like to warn everyone in Christ not to go overboard with sin or they will end up in "hell" literally.
But isn't the condemnation required to make us ask for forgiveness, that we have done great wrong worthy of hell and death? Or maybe not condemnation, too strong. Maybe guilt.
Yes, the answer is Christ Jesus. May Jesus help everyone!
I am abandoned by everybody bcos I abandoned them and God first. Nobody to talk to. Just God in heaven and Jesus and His Holy Spirit. Nobody can understand anyway. Tried many times for over so many years. I think it's sometimes better that I am alone but very lonely and painful. Been going to church but always by myself. Lately joined my bro in another church but got friction. God has given me a very great trial and temptation. I wish it needn't have to be like this. I was hoping for the rapture to come so that I can say bye bye to this world. I don't want to die but thots of death and suicide do come. But praying still...Originally posted by vince69:actually, its this fear of condemnation by God that drives people away from God and prevent people from receiving grace from God.
you feel guilty when you did wrong, is because of self conviction, thats ok, but what is not ok, is when you allow yourself to be swallowed up by this guilt and lost your focus on God.
sorry, personally, I feel that your problem may not be 'resolve' online in an open foumn, I feel what you need now is someone you can trust to be there to encourage you to perserve on, someone you can talk to at a personal level, someone mature enough for you to seek counsel.
cheers and God bless.