For Christians only.
-
This question is for Christians who believe in the pre-tribulational rapture only. The rest need not answer. Thank you for your cooperation. It is much appreciated.
Yes, the question is can a Christian who keeps sinning but try to repent but too in bondage go up in the pre-tribulational rapture? I also ask this for backslidden Christians and lukewarm Christians. Can they go up in the rapture before the tribulation? Even if he/she is sinning at the moment of the rapture?
Next, what is the qualification for the rapture? Salvation by grace or good works before a holy God, ie. keep as holy as poss.? Will there be Christians left behind or will all irregardless of condition go up in the rapture?
Thanks for all your answers. -
I believe the first thing to ask is this
do you believe in
Salvation based totally and completely in the grace of God through the death & resurrection of Jesus Christ?
or
Salvation based on the grace of God through the death & resurrection of Jesus Christ but must be maintained by our own good works?
or
Salvation based on the grace of God through the death & resurrection of Jesus Christ plus our own good works?
or
Salvation based on the grace of God through the death & resurrection of Jesus Christ or our own good works?
or
Salvation based totally and completely on our own good works with maybe a little help from Jesus Christ as a role model?
...etc
The answer to the above question will determine how the answer to your questions will come about.
** so, what do you believe in? -
Originally posted by Devils_advocate:
The scripture is unanimousely clear on this. Everyone has to go through tribulation so that their character can fully purified to meet the law of righteousness set by God and enter the kingdom of heaven.
This question is for Christians who believe in the pre-tribulational rapture only. The rest need not answer. Thank you for your cooperation. It is much appreciated.
Yes, the question is can a Christian who keeps sinning but try to repent but too in bondage go up in the pre-tribulational rapture? I also ask this for backslidden Christians and lukewarm Christians. Can they go up in the rapture before the tribulation? Even if he/she is sinning at the moment of the rapture?
Next, what is the qualification for the rapture? Salvation by grace or good works before a holy God, ie. keep as holy as poss.? Will there be Christians left behind or will all irregardless of condition go up in the rapture?
Thanks for all your answers.1 Peter 1:7 NIV
In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.
Matthew 10:39 NIV
Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
Matthew 16:25 NIV
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it.
Mark 8:35 NIV
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it.
Luke 9:24 NIV
For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it.
Luke 17:33 NIV
Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.
John 12:25 NIV
The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. -
one questionOriginally posted by Skibi:The scripture is unanimousely clear on this. Everyone has to go through tribulation so that their character can fully purified to meet the law of righteousness set by God and enter the kingdom of heaven.
These sufferings that are mentioned in your quotes, are they refering to the end time tribulation? or were they refering to the suffering that the church is going through during that time (the early church when the believers, including the Apostles were experiencing the persecutions)?
Thanks -
Do mainstream denominations hold to the rapture?Originally posted by vince69:one question
These sufferings that are mentioned in your quotes, are they refering to the end time tribulation? or were they refering to the suffering that the church is going through during that time (the early church when the believers, including the Apostles were experiencing the persecutions)?
Thanks
I heard about it in some documentary. Doubt its taught in the CC as i cant find it in either Summa Theologiae or Catechism.
Is it linked to zionism somewhow? -
Originally posted by vince69:
They refer to the personal trials that each person must go through before they can be fully purified and fit to enter heaven. Whether it is the end time tribulation or that of the early church is not important, as only God can see into a person's heart and judge how much suffering is necessary to refine a person's character.
one question
These sufferings that are mentioned in your quotes, are they refering to the end time tribulation? or were they refering to the suffering that the church is going through during that time (the early church when the believers, including the Apostles were experiencing the persecutions)?
Thanks
Every person is different, it is no use to compare using human terms who is suffering more etc.
An important thing to note that all suffering is caused by Satan. Rest assured that Satan will try to cause the maximum suffering possible(allowed by God) on each and every one of God's true followers in order to cause them to give up their hope in God. -
the answer to the question/s I posted is important in that we need to refer to the context on which the verses quoted so as to understand what they really mean.Originally posted by Skibi:They refer to the personal trials that each person must go through before they can be fully purified and fit to enter heaven. Whether it is the end time tribulation or that of the early church is not important, as only God can see into a person's heart and judge how much suffering is necessary to refine a person's character.
Every person is different, it is no use to compare using human terms who is suffering more etc.
An important thing to note that all suffering is caused by Satan. Rest assured that Satan will try to cause the maximum suffering possible on each and every one of God's true followers in order to cause them to give up their hope in God.
----------OOT
before we go on,
Skibi,
can I ask if you believed Jesus Christ
a) as your Messiah?
b) is just a prophet?
c) is just a good teacher?
d) is a crazy idiot?
e) is a super liar?
no evil intented, just that I find it difficult to have a meaning/fruitful discussion with someone whom I am not sure where their POV is coming from. also, when I read your post, I have some preconcieved idea and interpretation which I had found to be wrong (i mean my preconceived idea). pls use PM if not convient to post here
Thanks -
Originally posted by Skibi:
Now what does the maximum suffering possible allowed by God mean?
An important thing to note that all suffering is caused by Satan. Rest assured that Satan will try to cause the maximum suffering possible (allowed by God) on each and every one of God's true followers in order to cause them to give up their hope in God.
It means that there is a limit to the sufferings that God allows Satan to inflict on us based on our individual capabilities. It means that if we can only endure so much, and God judges that what we have endured is sufficient, then he will put and end to the suffering.
Additionally there are certain types of extraordinary people that have the honour of volunteering to face trials greater than what is normally required to enter heaven. These are the prophets and other upright men mentioned in the bible, and those martyrs who sacrificed their lives under torture and death in service of their master Jesus Christ. Such men will be rewarded greatly and given high posts in the kingdom of heaven according what they have done.Revelation 22:12 NIV
"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. -
Tribulation and rapture is not a universally accepted doctrine within Christianity.
Quotes from skibi can also be intepreted to mean suffering that believers have to go through in normal life. -
Of course the first option. Salvation based fully on the work of Jesus Christ. But many places in the bible, even by Jesus' words Himself, a believer has to keep holy and even to watch for His second coming to earth or miss the rapture. So contradiction here?Originally posted by vince69:I believe the first thing to ask is this
do you believe in
Salvation based totally and completely in the grace of God through the death & resurrection of Jesus Christ?
or
Salvation based on the grace of God through the death & resurrection of Jesus Christ but must be maintained by our own good works?
or
Salvation based on the grace of God through the death & resurrection of Jesus Christ plus our own good works?
or
Salvation based on the grace of God through the death & resurrection of Jesus Christ or our own good works?
or
Salvation based totally and completely on our own good works with maybe a little help from Jesus Christ as a role model?
...etc
The answer to the above question will determine how the answer to your questions will come about.
** so, what do you believe in?
So can a Christian miss the rapture? I mean he/she sins a lot, tried repenting but cannot and even is sinning during the time of rapture. I ask a side question here: Can this sinning Christian be saved in the first place at all? So how can a saved Christian keep sinning and not repenting even if he/she knows Jesus is watching and he/she is saved by grace? So he/she will miss the rapture? Or will he/she go up as well by grace?
So I have given you my option of salvation by grace. But u haven't answered my question yet.
EDIT: Yes, also what happens to backsliders and lukewarm Christians who have no intention of repenting or cannot repent? Will they be left behind? -
CC is amillenial in doctrine and treats Revelations and other end time prophecies allegorically not literally. Rapture is pre-millenial in doctrine and treats bible prophecy literally. So I don't think CC teaches it at all.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Do mainstream denominations hold to the rapture?
I heard about it in some documentary. Doubt its taught in the CC as i cant find it in either Summa Theologiae or Catechism.
Is it linked to zionism somewhow?
Yes, it's linked to zionism bcos according to bible prophecy, Israel must be in their own land once again in the end times and the land belongs to Israel and not Arabs or Palestines etc. -
Originally posted by Devils_advocate:
I believe in the pre-trib rapture of saints in Christ. That's why my nick is raptured. A Christian has to be watching for Jesus to come back again or he might be left behind. I am saying it's a possibility not a certainty bcos I am also not sure how deep is God's grace. Don't play with God's grace. It's better to be safe than sorry.
[b]This question is for Christians who believe in the pre-tribulational rapture only. The rest need not answer. Thank you for your cooperation. It is much appreciated.
Yes, the question is can a Christian who keeps sinning but try to repent but too in bondage go up in the pre-tribulational rapture? I also ask this for backslidden Christians and lukewarm Christians. Can they go up in the rapture before the tribulation? Even if he/she is sinning at the moment of the rapture?
Next, what is the qualification for the rapture? Salvation by grace or good works before a holy God, ie. keep as holy as poss.? Will there be Christians left behind or will all irregardless of condition go up in the rapture?
Thanks for all your answers.[/b] -
The origins of the rapture theory have its roots in some texts of the bible that describes the coming of Jesus like a thief. However one must look at the entire bible as a whole in order not to be deceived. The following text dispels all notion of any rapture.Originally posted by Raptured:
I believe in the pre-trib rapture of saints in Christ. That's why my nick is raptured. A Christian has to be watching for Jesus to come back again or he might be left behind.[/quote]
Unfortunately for you, rapture is not supported by the bible. Heed the words of Jesus instead.Matthew 24:27 NIV
For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
[quote]2 Peter 3:10 NIV
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.Then what does "the day of the Lord will come like a thief" mean?
Day is a reference to time. It means what we think it is. The time when Jesus will come is unknown to all except God the father. It will be a time when we least expect it. This does not refer to Jesus behaving sneakily like a thief and sneaking people off to heaven without those left behind knowing. As both text I have quoted shows, Jesus will come openly in a great display of power and glory such that everyone good or bad will know that he has finally come.Originally posted by Raptured:
Those who desire to escape the tribulation will perish. But those who gladly go through such trials in service of Jesus will be refined as gold in the fire and be fit to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Once again God will focus on Israel and the Gentile church will be raptured to start the 70th week. This is the Great Tribulation or Time of Jacob's Trouble. -
Rapture is a doctrine created by modern day theologicans. Hold fast to your traditions both written and unwritten.Originally posted by Raptured:I believe in the pre-trib rapture of saints in Christ. That's why my nick is raptured. A Christian has to be watching for Jesus to come back again or he might be left behind. I am saying it's a possibility not a certainty bcos I am also not sure how deep is God's grace. Don't play with God's grace. It's better to be safe than sorry. -
This scripture you quoted is talking about the Second Coming and not the rapture.Originally posted by Skibi:Unfortunately for you, rapture is not supported by the bible. Heed the words of Jesus instead.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew 24:27 NIV
For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The origins of the rapture theory have its roots in some texts of the bible that describes the coming of Jesus like a thief. However one must look at the entire bible as a whole in order not to be deceived. The following text dispels all notion of any rapture.
We are not saved by our good works or God needs to refine us to be fit to enter the kingdom of God. We are already being refined day by day as we live and there are martyrs dying every day even now. Many are also suffering persecution now. So it won't be in the trib. The tribulation is for those who convert after the rapture. This is not normal tribulation. It is great delusion and suffering. God will keep His faithful followers from this time. Jesus won't beat up His bride before He takes her to heaven.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Peter 3:10 NIV
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then what does "the day of the Lord will come like a thief" mean?
Day is a reference to time. It means what we think it is. The time when Jesus will come is unknown to all except God the father. It will be a time when we least expect it. This does not refer to Jesus behaving sneakily like a thief and sneaking people off to heaven without those left behind knowing. As both text I have quoted shows, Jesus will come openly in a great display of power and glory such that everyone good or bad will know that he has finally come.
[/quote]
This verse you quote refers to the rapture itself and not the second coming of Christ. If Jesus comes unexpectedly, how can it be after the Great Tribulation when everyone will see the Antichrist and everyone will know that the bible is true and everyone will know that Jesus is coming for sure? It surely must be before the tribulation when nobody except those watching will know that He is coming back to snatch His followers away. Nobody will be watching bcos there will be no Antichrist, no tribulation, no wars, no beheading of saints, no 666 mark of the beast, no armageddon, no signs at all etc etc, except for His believers who are watching. This verse shows conclusively that Jesus is coming back pre-trib and not post-trib to rapture His believers. And then later come again after 7 yrs visibly in the sky. The previous verse you mentioned earlier.[quote]
Those who desire to escape the tribulation will perish. But those who gladly go through such trials in service of Jesus will be refined as gold in the fire and be fit to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Those who desire to escape the tribulation will perish. But those who gladly go through such trials in service of Jesus will be refined as gold in the fire and be fit to enter the kingdom of heaven. -
Lets look at the verse again.Originally posted by Raptured:This verse you quote refers to the rapture itself and not the second coming of Christ.
It surely must be before the tribulation when nobody except those watching will know that He is coming back to snatch His followers away.2 Peter 3:10 NIV
First half - the day of the Lord will come like a thief.
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.
Second half - the heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.
Nobody will know? Fire destroying everything, heavens disappearing with a roar, the earth laid bare. Think again.Originally posted by Raptured:
I want to stress that it it Satan that brings suffering on God's followers. However instead of getting beat up, the true followers of God will emerge stronger than ever from the trials and triumph over the Devil.
Jesus won't beat up His bride before He takes her to heaven. -
Originally posted by Devils_advocate:
1) There is a new position that has emerged regarding the Rapture. The Partial Rapture view. I personally believe that this is wrong.
[b]This question is for Christians who believe in the pre-tribulational rapture only. The rest need not answer. Thank you for your cooperation. It is much appreciated.
Yes, the question is can a Christian who keeps sinning but try to repent but too in bondage go up in the pre-tribulational rapture? I also ask this for backslidden Christians and lukewarm Christians. Can they go up in the rapture before the tribulation? Even if he/she is sinning at the moment of the rapture?
Next, what is the qualification for the rapture? Salvation by grace or good works before a holy God, ie. keep as holy as poss.? Will there be Christians left behind or will all irregardless of condition go up in the rapture?
Thanks for all your answers.[/b]
The verses below does not refer to partial Rapture:
Lu 17:34 "I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left.
Lu 17:35 "Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left.
Lu 17:36 "Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left."
Lu 17:37 And they answered and said to Him, "Where, Lord?" So He said to them, "Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together."
NOtice verse 37, that when they asked the Lord "Where?" the Lord did not say to my Father's house but Rather "Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together."
Not all of Israel in the Great Tribulation will enter the Melinial Kingdom, they do not enter because of unbelief. Only those who are born from above will enter it. The Lord will punish them at His coming since they will have allied themselves to the Antichrist and oppress the believing remnant of Israel in the GReat Tribulation together with the men who who will attack Israel at the Armageddon:
Re 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,
Re 19:18 "that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.
So our question is: What does the Lord mean in these verses that one WILL BE TAKEN?
Lu 17:34 "I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left.
Lu 17:35 "Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left.
The best commentary of the Bible is the Bible itself. In a parallel acount in Matthew we are told that 'taken' there just means death just like in the days of Noah when the Flood set in and the unbelieving taken:
Mt 24:38 "For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
Mt 24:39 "and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Mt 24:40 "Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
Mt 24:41 "Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.
.
2) all our sins have been covered positionally by the blood of Christ. God knew in advance how many and what sins we will be committing from birth to death and He has atoned for it on the cross of Christ.
The Rapture is a clear doctrine of the Bible. Rapture just means 'caught up'
Paul was not wrong when he wrote:
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
The question however that is in question is when will that take place? Is it before Revalations 6-19, in the middle or after it.
1) If one can clearly see the distinction between Israel and the Church, he will clearly see that the Great Tribulation is for Jacob [israel] not for the Church, that the 'caught up' doctrine Paul is predicting in the verse above is before the Tribulation.
2) if one can rightly divide the Word of Truth that the Rapture doctrine was revealed to the Church [though it has a type in the Old Testament] not to Israel, that the caught up doctrine is a mystery, then it is easy to see that the caughting up will be before the Tribulation. -
Paul says: “For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep” (v.15). In other words, those Christians living at the time of the “rapture” are not taken first.
Instead, “the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air” (vv.16-17).
These passages clearly teach that the resurrection of the dead precedes the rapture. Therefore, to know when the rapture occurs, we must first know when the resurrection of the dead occurs.
Scripture teaches that the resurrection of the dead occurs on the “last day” of the world. Because the resurrection of the dead occurs on the “last day” of the world, and the rapture follows the resurrection, this means that the rapture also occurs on the “last day” (there can be no day after the “last day”). Since the rapture occurs on the “last day,” it cannot occur on any other day. -
Originally posted by Devils_advocate:
First, let me Thank you for your answer.
Of course the first option. Salvation based fully on the work of Jesus Christ. But many places in the bible, even by Jesus' words Himself, a believer has to keep holy and even to watch for His second coming to earth or miss the rapture. So contradiction here?
So can a Christian miss the rapture? I mean he/she sins a lot, tried repenting but cannot and even is sinning during the time of rapture. I ask a side question here: [b]Can this sinning Christian be saved in the first place at all? So how can a saved Christian keep sinning and not repenting even if he/she knows Jesus is watching and he/she is saved by grace? So he/she will miss the rapture? Or will he/she go up as well by grace?
So I have given you my option of salvation by grace. But u haven't answered my question yet.
EDIT: Yes, also what happens to backsliders and lukewarm Christians who have no intention of repenting or cannot repent? Will they be left behind?[/b]
If like what you say, "Salvation based fully on the work of Jesus Christ", what do you think the role of man's work is in salvation?
The thing is this, if its fully on Christ, what is it to do with man's work (be it good or bad?)
The question then is boil down to this,
1) is the person really in Christ?
can a sinning Christian be saved? can a saved Christian continue sinning?
The Apostle James have this to say,
James 2:18
But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
what is he saying? your deeds reflects what you really believed inside. he is not saying must have faith and works to be saved, salvation is by faith only, but this faith in you is manifested by what you do.
so, what type of faith/belief do you think a person who keep on sinning and not repentant have?
On the issue of Rapture, there are theory of post tribulation rapture, pre tribulation rapture, no rapture ...etc, I don't really know which is correct, all I know is The Lord is faithful, and when it happen, I will know. my job here is that I should in all things, not do things that will stumble others.
cheers.
-
But is there such a thing as complete assurance in salvation. I find the doctrine of knowing u are already saved reallie wrong haha. It makes salvation simple and sins small.
-
The term first resurrection is not an isolated event. It is a series of resurrection which Christ's resurrection is the firstfruit. Strictly, it was Christ's resurrection that was first from the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.
The Second Coming of the Lord like the first is a period of time not an isolated event. He spent 33 years here on earth in the First Advent. The same way with His Second Coming. First it will be marked off the Rapture of the Church before the Tribulation, then at His Manifestation to Israel after the Tribulation, the resurrection of the just will take place:
Da 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Without REvelation 20 we would think that the two resuctions here will take place at the same time. But further revelation tells us that these will be separated by a period of 1000 years.
Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection
Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
After the one thousand years however, the second resurrection will take place. The resurrection to everlasting contempt mentioned in Daniel:
Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
Re 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
Note: "REsurrection of the just" is a techinical term that refers to the believer's bodies being transformed and glorified.
Previous 'resurrections' [Lazarus etc] did not have this characteristic. Though he will experience THE RESURRECTION in the future with a glorified body that death will not take anymore.
Distinguish between resurrection temporal, resurrection to everlasting shame and contempt and resurrection glorious when reading the Bible. -
it simply says ..Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:But is there such a thing as complete assurance in salvation. I find the doctrine of knowing u are already saved reallie wrong haha. It makes salvation simple and sins small.
When God said it is , He really meant it is.
by the way, what type of assurance do you think there is in salvation?
Ephesians 1:13-14
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.
Christ paid for it, God marked you in it, the Holy Spirit guarantee it.... still not enough assurance meh?
its may be sound simple but its actually hard for many to accept.
-
So you mean to say the person who keeps sinning and not repentant altho he/she claims to have received Christ is NOT saved so cannot go up in rapture? But you also say it has nothing to do with man's work so how to confirm whether he/she really is or is not a Christian? Since it doesn't really matter what we do good or bad after we get saved? But what if that person is generally nice but in bondage to certain sins like alchoholism, masturbation, smoking, get angry easily etc etc? Even Paul sinned after being a Christian as in Romans 7 by coveting in the flesh. But Paul got the revelation of rapture.Originally posted by vince69:First, let me Thank you for your answer.
If like what you say, "Salvation based fully on the work of Jesus Christ", what do you think the role of man's work is in salvation?
The thing is this, if its fully on Christ, what is it to do with man's work (be it good or bad?)
The question then is boil down to this,
1) is the person really in Christ?
can a sinning Christian be saved? can a saved Christian continue sinning?
The Apostle James have this to say,
James 2:18
But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
what is he saying? your deeds reflects what you really believed inside. he is not saying must have faith and works to be saved, salvation is by faith only, but this faith in you is manifested by what you do.
so, what type of faith/belief do you think a person who keep on sinning and not repentant have?
On the issue of Rapture, there are theory of post tribulation rapture, pre tribulation rapture, no rapture ...etc, I don't really know which is correct, all I know is The Lord is faithful, and when it happen, I will know. my job here is that I should in all things, not do things that will stumble others.
cheers.
What about lukewarm or backslidden Christian? What about Christian who happen to sin during the time of rapture? You haven't answered fully. Thanks for your answers.
IMPORTANT TO ALL REPLYING: THIS IS NOT A DEBATE ABOUT WHETHER THE RAPTURE IS PRE OR POST TRIB OR NO RAPTURE. IT'S FOR BELIEVERS OF PRE-TRIB RAPTURE AS MENTIONED. ALTHO YOU ARE WELCOME TO CONTRIBUTE, PLS KEEP IN MIND IT'S OUT OF POINT HERE AND NO MARKS WILL BE GIVEN. -
Originally posted by Ironside:
So according to you, ALL will be raptured irregardless of sins or backslidden or lukewarm condition since you say full rapture and not partial rapture? I am not arguing about pre or post but who goes up. Thanks for your answers supporting the pre trib scenario. But would like to hear more about what i raised to you here above as to who gets to go up.
1) There is a new position that has emerged regarding the Rapture. The Partial Rapture view. I personally believe that this is wrong.
The verses below does not refer to partial Rapture:
Lu 17:34 "I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left.
Lu 17:35 "Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left.
Lu 17:36 "Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left."
Lu 17:37 And they answered and said to Him, "Where, Lord?" So He said to them, "Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together."
NOtice verse 37, that when they asked the Lord "Where?" the Lord did not say to my Father's house but Rather "Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together."
Not all of Israel in the Great Tribulation will enter the Melinial Kingdom, they do not enter because of unbelief. Only those who are born from above will enter it. The Lord will punish them at His coming since they will have allied themselves to the Antichrist and oppress the believing remnant of Israel in the GReat Tribulation together with the men who who will attack Israel at the Armageddon:
Re 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to [b]all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,
Re 19:18 "that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.
So our question is: What does the Lord mean in these verses that one WILL BE TAKEN?
Lu 17:34 "I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left.
Lu 17:35 "Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left.
The best commentary of the Bible is the Bible itself. In a parallel acount in Matthew we are told that 'taken' there just means death just like in the days of Noah when the Flood set in and the unbelieving taken:
Mt 24:38 "For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,
Mt 24:39 "and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
Mt 24:40 "Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left.
Mt 24:41 "Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.
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2) all our sins have been covered positionally by the blood of Christ. God knew in advance how many and what sins we will be committing from birth to death and He has atoned for it on the cross of Christ.
The Rapture is a clear doctrine of the Bible. Rapture just means 'caught up'
Paul was not wrong when he wrote:
1Th 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
The question however that is in question is when will that take place? Is it before Revalations 6-19, in the middle or after it.
1) If one can clearly see the distinction between Israel and the Church, he will clearly see that the Great Tribulation is for Jacob [israel] not for the Church, that the 'caught up' doctrine Paul is predicting in the verse above is before the Tribulation.
2) if one can rightly divide the Word of Truth that the Rapture doctrine was revealed to the Church [though it has a type in the Old Testament] not to Israel, that the caught up doctrine is a mystery, then it is easy to see that the caughting up will be before the Tribulation.
[/b] -
Originally posted by Devils_advocate:
we are talking about two different group of people here
So you mean to say the person who keeps sinning and not repentant altho he/she claims to have received Christ is NOT saved so cannot go up in rapture? But you also say it has nothing to do with man's work so how to confirm whether he/she really is or is not a Christian? Since it doesn't really matter what we do good or bad after we get saved? But what if that person is generally nice but in bondage to certain sins like alchoholism, masturbation, smoking, get angry easily etc etc? Even Paul sinned after being a Christian as in Romans 7 by coveting in the flesh. But Paul got the revelation of rapture.
What about lukewarm or backslidden Christian? What about Christian who happen to sin during the time of rapture? You haven't answered fully. Thanks for your answers.
[b]IMPORTANT TO ALL REPLYING: THIS IS NOT A DEBATE ABOUT WHETHER THE RAPTURE IS PRE OR POST TRIB OR NO RAPTURE. IT'S FOR BELIEVERS OF PRE-TRIB RAPTURE AS MENTIONED. ALTHO YOU ARE WELCOME TO CONTRIBUTE, PLS KEEP IN MIND IT'S OUT OF POINT HERE AND NO MARKS WILL BE GIVEN.[/b]
1) those who profess that they are Christian, yet they live a life of sin and had no desire of repentance. to this, I would really question their confession, as in have they really put their faith in Christ or just treat Him like a fire inssurance.
2) those who had really received Christ as their savior, and had a desire to live a life according in Christ. now this group of people, though they may fall once in a while, sin once in a while, its no longer natural to them. To this group, I will say, the conversion is real, though sin may be committed and may even fell, they fell in Christ, hence still in Christ by grace.
What about lukewarm or backslidden Christian? What about Christian who happen to sin during the time of rapture?
ok, assuming you are right, they are Christian, then my take is that they aill still be saved, cause its really boils down to How faithful God is.
my apology for my lack of proficency in expression that may cause confussion.