Did Jesus sin? The value of Jesus' temptation - discuss.
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If Satan had ceased to an Archangel, he would have lost all his pwoers (namely to carry God messages and to protect). As a result, he will no longer be called an Archangel as he lost his powers. Similiarly if Jesus has lost all his divine powers, he cannot be called the Son of God.Originally posted by Icemoon:what does this have to do with your cherub example?
Once an orignal substance has lost its form, it ceased to be such and as a result will no longer be called such. -
It is impossible for Man to become God. Can a man without sin be God? Can a creation become the creator? Thats where Skibi theory falls. Man cannot become God. If its possible, then we should have a pantheon of Gods.Originally posted by Icemoon:why is it impossible? -
Correct me if I'm wrong .. in Skibi's example Jesus gave up his powers to become man, then become God again.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:It is impossible for Man to become God. Can a man without sin be God? Can a creation become the creator? Thats where Skibi theory falls. Man cannot become God. If its possible, then we should have a pantheon of Gods. -
once again, how is this related to the cherub example?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:If Satan had ceased to an Archangel, he would have lost all his pwoers (namely to carry God messages and to protect). As a result, he will no longer be called an Archangel as he lost his powers. Similiarly if Jesus has lost all his divine powers, he cannot be called the Son of God.
Once an orignal substance has lost its form, it ceased to be such and as a result will no longer be called such. -
1) Jesus gave up his powers and his divinity to become fully Man.Originally posted by Icemoon:Correct me if I'm wrong .. in Skibi's example Jesus gave up his powers to become man, then become God again.
Theoritically this is possible as God being omnipotent can do anything, even to give up his nature and become fully man. However an important point to take note is that once a substance changes its form physically and as an entity, it ceases to to exist in its new form. Hence Skibi and I do agree that once Jesus gives up his divinity, he ceases to be God but instead becomes Man.
2) Man Jesus becomes God after he completes his duty.
This is naturally impossible. While I do concede its possible for the new form to undergo a transformation to return back to its oringal state, in this context it is impossible. It is impossible for a MAN no matter how divine his origins might be or how sinless he was, to ever become God. It is naturally impossible for Man of finite matter t ever take up infinity. The reverse of God becoming Man (in his doctrine) is possible but not the part of Man Jesus becoming God.
God declared: "Â…that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me" (Isa. 43: 10). Before God, there was no God. After God there shall be no God formed. Hence, man (even Man) Jesus cannot so develop and graduate as to become God himself.
As a resuly Skibi doctrine falls and the Chalcedonian Trinatiran view of Christ stands. -
Actually you are confusing yourself.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:2) Man Jesus becomes God after he completes his duty.
This is naturally impossible. While I do concede its possible for the new form to undergo a transformation to return back to its oringal state, in this context it is impossible. It is impossible for a MAN no matter how divine his origins might be or how sinless he was, to ever become God. It is naturally impossible for Man of finite matter t ever take up infinity. The reverse of God becoming Man (in his doctrine) is possible but not the part of Man Jesus becoming God.
Jesus was only MAN AND GOD at a specific time in history.
Since there is no dispute with Christology between Roman Catholics and Protestants, I quote you the CHAPTER VIII of the Westminister Confession of Faith.II. The Son of God, the second Person in the Trinity, being very and eternal God, of one substance, and equal with the Father, did, when the fullness of time was come, take upon him man's nature, with all the essential properties and common infirmities thereof; yet without sin: being conceived by he power of the Holy Ghost, in the womb of the Virgin Mary, of her substance. So that two whole, perfect, and distinct natures, the Godhead and the manhood, were inseparably joined together in one person, without conversion, composition, or confusion. Which person is very God and very man, yet one Christ, the only Mediator between God and man.
So perhaps in Skibi's theology, the man Jesus did not become God. Jesus was already God, but one who has given up his godly powers. So Jesus, to him, was just a man but one who has powers like the prophets.
In other words, the difference can be quite subtle.
Correct Christology: God -> God and Man -> God
Skibi's Christology: God -> Man -> God -
Correct Christology: God - Jesus (God with 2 nature) - God
Skibi Theology: God - MAN - GOD.
I contest the 2nd step of his theology whereby Man can become God.Council of Chalcedon:
Same as protestants. But skibi says Christ became totally Man. That is very different. I have already shown that it is virtually impossible for Man to become God.
Following the holy Fathers, we unanimously teach and confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ: the same perfect in divinity and perfect in humanity, the same truly God and truly man, composed of rational soul and body; consubstantial with the Father as to his divinity and consubstantial with us as to his humanity; "like us in all things but sin." He was begotten from the Father before all ages as to his divinity and in these last days, for us and for our salvation, was born as to his humanity of the virgin Mary, the Mother of God.
We confess that one and the same Christ, Lord, and only-begotten Son, is to be acknowledged in two natures without confusion, change, division, or separation. The distinction between natures was never abolished by their union, but rather the character proper to each of the two natures was preserved as they came together in one person (prosopon) and one hypostasis -
Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:
You doubt the power of God the Father? If God judges his son worthy of returning to the Holy Trinity as a God who are you to cast doubt on God's judgement? Do you also doubt his wisdom and fairness?
I have already shown that it is virtually impossible for Man to become God. -
What is this? Petitio Principii?Originally posted by Skibi:If God judges his son worthy of returning to the Holy Trinity as a God who are you to cast doubt on God's judgement? Do you also doubt his wisdom and fairness?
Try harder!
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Originally posted by Skibi:
1) I doubt the power of Man to ever become a God. In this case, Man Jesus gaining the power of being God.
You doubt the power of [b]God the Father? If God judges his son worthy of returning to the Holy Trinity as a God who are you to cast doubt on God's judgement? Do you also doubt his wisdom and fairness?[/b]
2) If you believe in the doctrine of the Holy Spirit, explain to me this conclusion which i derive from your doctrine,
i) Jesus, the Son of God, gives up all his divinity and powers to become Man.
ii) He hence cease to be God as he takes the form of finite matter without any divinity.
iii) Does the Holy Trinity God exist for 33 years as Jesus, the Son is gone as Man and have ceased being a divine figure?