Did Jesus sin? The value of Jesus' temptation - discuss.
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YesOriginally posted by Icemoon:So the Church chose the correct Gospel? Are you certain of that? -
Aniwaes back to thread, what do u think of Aquinas explanation?
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that and more importantly, who has the correct Scripture.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:So it begs the question of whose intepretation of Scripture is correct? -
what a long discussion....
Skibi you are full of nonsense... -
Skibi makes sense sometimes.Originally posted by davidche:what a long discussion....
Skibi you are full of nonsense... -
Not really.Originally posted by davidche:what a long discussion....
Skibi you are full of nonsense... -
Does Aquinas reasoning helps answer the thread?
I answer that, Christ wished to be tempted; first that He might strengthen us against temptations. Hence Gregory says in a homily (xvi in Evang.): "It was not unworthy of our Redeemer to wish to be tempted, who came also to be slain; in order that by His temptations He might conquer our temptations, just as by His death He overcame our death."
Secondly, that we might be warned, so that none, however holy, may think himself safe or free from temptation. Wherefore also He wished to be tempted after His baptism, because, as Hilary says (Super Matth., cap. iii.): "The temptations of the devil assail those principally who are sanctified, for he desires, above all, to overcome the holy. Hence also it is written (Ecclus. 2): Son, when thou comest to the service of God, stand in justice and in fear, and prepare thy soul for temptation."
Thirdly, in order to give us an example: to teach us, to wit, how to overcome the temptations of the devil. Hence Augustine says (De Trin. iv) that Christ "allowed Himself to be tempted" by the devil, "that He might be our Mediator in overcoming temptations, not only by helping us, but also by giving us an example."
Fourthly, in order to fill us with confidence in His mercy. Hence it is written (Heb. 4:15): "We have not a high-priest, who cannot have compassion on our infirmities, but one tempted in all things like as we are, without sin."I answer that, As stated above (Article [1], ad 2), Christ of His own free-will exposed Himself to be tempted by the devil, just as by His own free-will He submitted to be killed by His members; else the devil would not have dared to approach Him. Now the devil prefers to assail a man who is alone, for, as it is written (Eccles. 4:12), "if a man prevail against one, two shall withstand him." And so it was that Christ went out into the desert, as to a field of battle, to be tempted there by the devil. Hence Ambrose says on Lk. 4:1, that "Christ was led into the desert for the purpose of provoking the devil. For had he," i.e. the devil, "not fought, He," i.e. Christ, "would not have conquered." He adds other reasons, saying that "Christ in doing this set forth the mystery of Adam's delivery from exile," who had been expelled from paradise into the desert, and "set an example to us, by showing that the devil envies those who strive for better things."
Reply to Objection 1: As Augustine says (De Civ. Dei ix): "Christ was known to the demons only so far as He willed; not as the Author of eternal life, but as the cause of certain temporal effects," from which they formed a certain conjecture that Christ was the Son of God. But since they also observed in Him certain signs of human frailty, they did not know for certain that He was the Son of God: wherefore (the devil) wished to tempt Him. This is implied by the words of Mt. 4:2,3, saying that, after "He was hungry, the tempter" came "to Him," because, as Hilary says (Super Matth., cap. iii), "Had not Christ's weakness in hungering betrayed His human nature, the devil would not have dared to tempt Him." Moreover, this appears from the very manner of the temptation, when he said: "If Thou be the Son of God." Which words Ambrose explains as follows (In Luc. iv): "What means this way of addressing Him, save that, though he knew that the Son of God was to come, yet he did not think that He had come in the weakness of the flesh?" -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
Excellent example.
I have to say my view on this is closer to Skibi than the Christians. Not that I support him fully though ..
To quote an example from a rabbi, it is like putting a "physically-challenged" person (who has no legs but two stumps) at the start line and tell him to WIN the marathon. And when he can't do it, you slap him and punish him.Originally posted by Icemoon:
From the mainstream view the answer is indeed zero. However from the bible's point of view, the answer is that Jesus gambled his Godhood to prove that God's law of righteousness is fair and can be kept by everyone.
3. Here is my question - what is the price God has to pay for our salvation? ZERO! Did God lose a Son? Nope! Isn't the Son sitting at the right (or issit left) hand of the Father now?
In fact, Jews paid the price because the blood is on them and their children. Anti-semitism has its origins in the New Testament.
What about the physical suffering? Crucification is cruel but there is no need to exaggerate the punishment and suffering. The Jews have their fair share of martyrs. In one poignant episode, a sage was burned at the stake wrapped in no other than the Torah scroll that he taught despite the prohibition from Rome on teaching the Torah!Romans 8:3 NIV
Jesus came to earth as a sinful man thus forfeiting his right to heaven and to be God from the very beginning. If he did not purify himself within 30 years he will be destined to die as a sinner and never ascend back to heaven as a God.
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, -
Aquinas has clearly explained why Jesus was tempted.
I answer that, Christ wished to be tempted; first that He might strengthen us against temptations. Hence Gregory says in a homily (xvi in Evang.): "It was not unworthy of our Redeemer to wish to be tempted, who came also to be slain; in order that by His temptations He might conquer our temptations, just as by His death He overcame our death."
More importantly the Gospels said nothing of this sort. By sola scriptura, u are making a huge assumption.
Secondly, that we might be warned, so that none, however holy, may think himself safe or free from temptation. Wherefore also He wished to be tempted after His baptism, because, as Hilary says (Super Matth., cap. iii.): "The temptations of the devil assail those principally who are sanctified, for he desires, above all, to overcome the holy. Hence also it is written (Ecclus. 2): Son, when thou comest to the service of God, stand in justice and in fear, and prepare thy soul for temptation."
Thirdly, in order to give us an example: to teach us, to wit, how to overcome the temptations of the devil. Hence Augustine says (De Trin. iv) that Christ "allowed Himself to be tempted" by the devil, "that He might be our Mediator in overcoming temptations, not only by helping us, but also by giving us an example."
Fourthly, in order to fill us with confidence in His mercy. Hence it is written (Heb. 4:15): "We have not a high-priest, who cannot have compassion on our infirmities, but one tempted in all things like as we are, without sin."
John 5:23 - Jesus equates Himself with the Father, "whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him."
John 10:30 - Jesus says, "I and the Father are one." They are equal
Matt. 4:7; Luke 4:12 - Jesus tells satan, "you shall not tempt the Lord your God" in reference to Himself.
John 8:58 - Jesus says, "Before Abraham was, I AM." Exodus 3:14 - "I AM" means "Yahweh," which means God.
Ur belief did not even survive the test of time. As such, it cannot be the Truth as Christ said the gates of Hell will not prevail against it. Since that doctrine was killed, the gates of hades has indeed prevailed so it cant be the truth. Christ will not blind us from the Truth and leave us orphan. -
i hope this thread is not talking about the holy grail
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Romance of 3 kingdom
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liesOriginally posted by M©+square:Romance of 3 kingdom
i read the whole bible before.....
and i even seen the whole sequel about romance of the three kingdom on channel 8 before -
it is still talking about Jesus' temptation.Originally posted by allentyb:i hope this thread is not talking about the holy grail -
oicOriginally posted by Icemoon:it is still talking about Jesus' temptation. -
Originally posted by allentyb:lies
i read the whole bible before.....
and i even seen the whole sequel about romance of the three kingdom on channel 8 before 
What are you talking about? -
nevermind, i thought you are replying to my post.Originally posted by M©+square: What are you talking about?
sorry, my bad, just came back from work -
wait .. does "I AM" means the tetragammatron??Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:John 8:58 - Jesus says, "Before Abraham was, I AM." Exodus 3:14 - "I AM" means "Yahweh," which means God. -
Not true.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:John 10:30 - Jesus says, "I and the Father are one." They are equal
When we say we are one people, one nation, one singapore .. it DOES NOT mean the citizens are equal.
It only means the citizens are one in spirit, whether rich or poor, elite or not elite. -
Not true.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:John 5:23 - Jesus equates Himself with the Father, "whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him."
Any prophet can say that but prophets will not equate themselves with the Father.
The idea is that as an envoy or ambassador, you are representing the one who send you. -
Why doesn't Jesus say "you shall not tempt me, the Lord your God"?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Matt. 4:7; Luke 4:12 - Jesus tells satan, "you shall not tempt the Lord your God" in reference to Himself. -
So did he succeed?Originally posted by Skibi:Jesus came to earth as a sinful man thus forfeiting his right to heaven and to be God from the very beginning. If he did not purify himself within 30 years he will be destined to die as a sinner and never ascend back to heaven as a God.
I think he did not .. since he said "my god my god why have you forsaken me".
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That can be found in Psalm 22:1 btw.Originally posted by Icemoon:So did he succeed?
I think he did not .. since he said "my god my god why have you forsaken me".
Hmm, Jesus was resurrected. And if Skibi theory is true, why is Jesus called Lord before he was borned?
Why is Jesus called the WORD by John???
And remember, the Jews crucified Christ because he claimed to be God. -
So what? This just strengthens the argument that God has forsaken him. Or that Jesus thought God has forsaken him.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:That can be found in Psalm 22:1 btw.Hmm, Jesus was resurrected. And if Skibi theory is true, why is Jesus called Lord before he was borned?
Actually I dunno what is his theory. Still trying to fit him into one of the ancient heresies.
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Where?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Hmm, Jesus was resurrected. And if Skibi theory is true, why is Jesus called Lord before he was borned? -
Luke 1: 43
And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord 14 should come to me?
If he was truly man or merely a man with a divine nature, he shalt not be called God for that is blasphemous and furthermore, she is under the influencing of Holy Spirit hence she must be speaking the truth.