Did Jesus sin? The value of Jesus' temptation - discuss.
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Jesus even killed people before in the non-canonical texts. And he was still a child then.
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Mark 10:18 NIV"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.
Trust the words of Solomon. Doubt no more.Luke 18:19 NIV
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.[/quote]Matthew 19:17 NIV
Believe and trust the words of Jesus.
"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.
[quote]Ecclesiastes 7:20 NIVThere is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins. -
Mark 10:18 NIV
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.
Luke 18:19 NIV
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.
Matthew 19:17 NIV
"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.
Why leave out John 1:1-4 NIV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
or Matthew 16:15-17 NIV
"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
..... so skibi...is Jesus God?
..... oh the Solomon thing??? welll bear in mind it was written much earlier in history.... so I don't think it counted. -
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
You are wrong because the bible never contradicts itself. Jesus is the Son, not God the father. In his time as a mortal he did sin... which is why he is surprised at the question and asks - why do you call me good? Jesus then goes on to declare that only God (the father) is good and thus the only one that has never sinned in his entire existence.
Mark 10:18 NIV
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.
Luke 18:19 NIV
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.
Matthew 19:17 NIV
"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.
Why leave out John 1:1-4 NIV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
or Matthew 16:15-17 NIV
"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
..... so skibi...is Jesus God?..... oh the Solomon thing??? welll bear in mind it was written much earlier in history.... so I don't think it counted.
Wrong again. How can you select which parts of the bible are true and which parts are false in order to support your own argument? In case others are wondering whether it is "counted" or not, the apostle Paul writes very clearly after Jesus' death...
Romans 3:12 NIV
...there is no one who does good, not even one. -
Disagree.Originally posted by Chin Eng:or Matthew 16:15-17 NIV
"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
The disciples obviously did not know the true nature of Christ nor His true mission on Earth. -
John 1:1-18
The Word Became Flesh
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' " 16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
*** explaination to follow -
verse 1,2,14 of John 1
quote:
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Matthew 19:17 NIV
"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.
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Believe and trust the words of Jesus.
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
here, John is talking about the divinity of Jesus, Jesus being the "Word" that became flesh is God. Hence, Jesus is correct, to say only God is good.
Why then did Jesus question about the rich young man for calling him a good teacher?
1) Jesus is more than just a good teacher
2) Jesus is challenging his (the rich young man) idea of man being able to be good.
refering to keeping the commandments, "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"
yes, King Soloman is correct, there is not a righteous man on earth
quote:
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Ecclesiastes 7:20 NIV
There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins.
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Trust the words of Solomon. Doubt no more.
however, Jesus being the word made flesh (see above quotes), is not of this world, further more, Jesus is God, the Son.
Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.
He was send in the likeness of sinful man, He was not send as a sinful man.
edit: letter in red.... sorry vince.... -
The issue is not the about the true nature of Christ nor his true mission on earth (this point is still being debated by many)... the issue is Jesus accepted Peter's acknowledgement regardless of whether Peter know what he is talking about or not.Originally posted by Icemoon:Disagree.
The disciples obviously did not know the true nature of Christ nor His true mission on Earth.
the point to the TS is simply: Jesus is God, hence while in human form he is capable of sinning, but he did not sin. -
Jesus accepted Peter's acknowledgement, yes.Originally posted by Chin Eng:The issue is not the about the true nature of Christ nor his true mission on earth (this point is still being debated by many)... the issue is Jesus accepted Peter's acknowledgement regardless of whether Peter know what he is talking about or not.
the point to the TS is simply: Jesus is God, hence while in human form he is capable of sinning, but he did not sin.
But that acknowledgement does not tell us that Jesus is God. -
Originally posted by vince69:
While it is commendable that the early church chose to place Jesus on a holier than thou pedestal, this is not what Jesus wants nor what the bible teaches.
yes, King Soloman is correct, there is not a righteous man on earth
however, Jesus being the word made flesh (see above quotes), is not of this world, further more, Jesus is God, the Son.
Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.
Let us examine the claims that the church makes closely...
1. Jesus never sinned during his life as a mortal. (i.e infallible)
2. Jesus knows the future.
Both claims while appealing to the masses on the surface, actually serve to undermine the fairness of God and devalue the sacrifice of Jesus.
Imagine a student sitting for an exam. Would you respect him if he tops the class because:
A. He has the answer sheet. (i.e knows the future)
and as if that wasn't enough...
B. He is the smartest person in the world and doesn't even need to study in the first place as the people setting the questions are all far beneath him in ability and intelligience. (i.e infallible)
The answer is obvious. No one would respect someone for an achievement that requires zero effort.
Jesus reincarnated himself as a mortal to prove that it is possible for us to follow the law of righteousness set by God. Hence to make the test fair in the eyes of everyone, he had to divest himself of his godly powers, his memories as a god, and any other special ability that would prevent him from sinning.
Just like a normal person that sins initially and must struggle to sin less and less each time his sins are absolved, Jesus is the same. The way to perfection is not an overnight thing but requires constant effort and diligence. Jesus struggled to control his sinful desires for 30 years before succeeding.
However did Jesus ascend to heaven after achieveing the state of purity and sinlessness? No he did not. Jesus made an even greater sacrifice by giving up his reward and choosing to remain on earth and complete his ministry. This ministry was to sacrifice his sinless body for the sins of you and me. -
so question to you skibi, is, his "sinless body"? so was it sinless because he lived his entire life sinless, or was it sinless because at the time of his crucifixion he is sinless?Originally posted by Skibi:This ministry was to sacrifice his sinless body for the sins of you and me. -
your example is flaw,Originally posted by Skibi:Imagine a student sitting for an exam. Would you respect him if he tops the class because:
A. He has the answer sheet. (i.e knows the future)
and as if that wasn't enough...
B. He is the smartest person in the world and doesn't even need to study in the first place as the people setting the questions are all far beneath him in ability and intelligience. (i.e infallible)
The answer is obvious. No one would respect someone for an achievement that requires zero effort.
1) Jesus is not here to learn nor on educational tour, He is here to make the way and to show the way. so you cannot equate Him to a student taking test.
2) His achievement is not without efforts, He paid the price with His own life and the suffering He have to go through to the cross for our sake is not for fun either. -
Jesus is here not about proving its is possible for us to follow the law, but its precisely we cannot follow the righteouness of required by the righteous law of God that He have to come to fulfill this requirement for us.Originally posted by Skibi:Jesus reincarnated himself as a mortal to prove that it is possible for us to follow the law of righteousness set by God. Hence to make the test fair in the eyes of everyone, he had to divest himself of his godly powers, his memories as a god, and any other special ability that would prevent him from sinning.
Just like a normal person that sins initially and must struggle to sin less and less each time his sins are absolved, Jesus is the same. The way to perfection is not an overnight thing but requires constant effort and diligence. Jesus struggled to control his sinful desires for 30 years before succeeding.
However did Jesus ascend to heaven after achieveing the state of purity and sinlessness? No he did not. Jesus made an even greater sacrifice by giving up his reward and choosing to remain on earth and complete his ministry. This ministry was to sacrifice his sinless body for the sins of you and me.
And He is not a normal person. And the absolving of sins can only be done through the blood of Jesus.
hang on, on the last paragraph here in the quote, did you mixed Christianity with some other religion or teachings? hey, don't do rojak leh...
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Originally posted by vince69:
This is a very serious statement. If the law of righteousness set by God cannot be followed, then God will have just shot himself in the foot and will soon be exposed as the greatest hypocrite and the originator of sin.
Jesus is here not about proving its is possible for us to follow the law, but its precisely we cannot follow the righteouness of required by the righteous law of God that He have to come to fulfill this requirement for us.
And He is not a normal person. And the absolving of sins can only be done through the blood of Jesus.
Why is this so?
By your statement...
Originator of Sin:
1. God created beings that are incapable of following the law of righteousness.
Hypocrite:
2. God then labelled the beings he created as sinners. (when it is his fault for not giving them the ability to follow his laws in the first place)
3. God then attempted to prove that he is still in the right by sending Jesus reincarnated as a mortal man to earth. But at the same time cheating by allowing Jesus to retain special powers to resist sin. -
I think sikibi is a muslim in disguise.
Read Mat 16:17He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter said in reply, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
While this quote is often used to prove papal infallibility, it shalt be used to prove Christ divinity.
If Skibi believes in the innerrancy of Scripture, he can logically conclude that it was GOD the Father that revealed to Peter Christ true nature. The Father will not lie.
John 20:28Thomas answered and said to him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Have you come to believe because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed." Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of (his) disciples that are not written in this book. But these are written that you may (come to) believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through this belief you may have life in his name.
Explain this quote to me......
And lastly on Christ being God since conception.
Luke 2:11For today in the city of David a savior has been born for you who is Messiah and Lord.
Jesus Christ was borned LORD. -
On Christ temptation,
The Angelic Doctor, St Aquinas explains it.I answer that, Christ wished to be tempted; first that He might strengthen us against temptations. Hence Gregory says in a homily (xvi in Evang.): "It was not unworthy of our Redeemer to wish to be tempted, who came also to be slain; in order that by His temptations He might conquer our temptations, just as by His death He overcame our death."
I think its quote well explained.
Secondly, that we might be warned, so that none, however holy, may think himself safe or free from temptation. Wherefore also He wished to be tempted after His baptism, because, as Hilary says (Super Matth., cap. iii.): "The temptations of the devil assail those principally who are sanctified, for he desires, above all, to overcome the holy. Hence also it is written (Ecclus. 2): Son, when thou comest to the service of God, stand in justice and in fear, and prepare thy soul for temptation."
Thirdly, in order to give us an example: to teach us, to wit, how to overcome the temptations of the devil. Hence Augustine says (De Trin. iv) that Christ "allowed Himself to be tempted" by the devil, "that He might be our Mediator in overcoming temptations, not only by helping us, but also by giving us an example."
Fourthly, in order to fill us with confidence in His mercy. Hence it is written (Heb. 4:15): "We have not a high-priest, who cannot have compassion on our infirmities, but one tempted in all things like as we are, without sin."
http://www.ccel.org/a/aquinas/summa/TP/TP041.html#TPQ41OUTP1 -
yes, these are serious statement.Originally posted by Skibi:This is a very serious statement. If the law of righteousness set by God cannot be followed, then God will have just shot himself in the foot and will soon be exposed as the greatest hypocrite and the originator of sin.
Why is this so?
By your statement...
Originator of Sin:
1. God created beings that are incapable of following the law of righteousness.
Hypocrite:
2. God then labelled the beings he created as sinners. (when it is his fault for not giving them the ability to follow his laws in the first place)
3. God then attempted to prove that he is still in the right by sending Jesus reincarnated as a mortal man to earth. But at the same time cheating by allowing Jesus to retain special powers to resist sin.
1) it simply said the incapability of man, thats why we need a saviour (Jesus Christ). Ask yourself this, if man is able, why send a saviour? if its just simply as you said, to show that man is capable, any prophet will do, there is no need for Christ to suffer and die on the cross, does it?
2) Why have the laws then, the law is to perfect and righteous in itself, the problem is, the laws of God so perfect that it demands perfectness, hence man, in our fallen state is not capable of, thus realising this (as shown to us through the laws), we turn to the saviour.
3) did God cheat? the problem is, Christ mission here is not about resisting sins, His mission here is to show us God, and also to paid the penalty of our sins. since, its not about resisting sin, then its not cheating.
by the way, He not only overcome sin, he also overcome death, sickness, hunger as well.
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Pope,Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:I think sikibi is a *****
Read Mat 16:17
Jesus Christ was borned LORD.
pls admend your post, not good to name another reglious organisation is this manner....
Thanks -
Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:
Okay noted.
I think sikibi is a muslim in disguise. -
I have to say my view on this is closer to Skibi than the Christians. Not that I support him fully though ..Originally posted by vince69:yes, these are serious statement.
1) it simply said the incapability of man, thats why we need a saviour (Jesus Christ). Ask yourself this, if man is able, why send a saviour? if its just simply as you said, to show that man is capable, any prophet will do, there is no need for Christ to suffer and die on the cross, does it?
2) Why have the laws then, the law is to perfect and righteous in itself, the problem is, the laws of God so perfect that it demands perfectness, hence man, in our fallen state is not capable of, thus realising this (as shown to us through the laws), we turn to the saviour.
3) did God cheat? the problem is, Christ mission here is not about resisting sins, His mission here is to show us God, and also to paid the penalty of our sins. since, its not about resisting sin, then its not cheating.
by the way, He not only overcome sin, he also overcome death, sickness, hunger as well.
1. You are begging the question by saying "Ask yourself this, if man is able, why send a saviour?" HUH? You are slipping the conclusion into the premise! And what is your conclusion? That man is NOT able!
2. Disagree. Man is not created perfect, Adam and Eve were not created perfect. Why did God give us, non-perfect people, the perfect law?
Furthermore the laws were given at Sinai. According to the Christian argument, Man was already depraved then. Why did God give depraved people the "so perfect" law?
I'm sorry, but you are turning God into a treacherous God who delights in seeing His people suffer trying to fulfill the "so perfect" law.
To quote an example from a rabbi, it is like putting a "physically-challenged" person (who has no legs but two stumps) at the start line and tell him to WIN the marathon. And when he can't do it, you slap him and punish him.
3. Here is my question - what is the price God has to pay for our salvation? ZERO! Did God lose a Son? Nope! Isn't the Son sitting at the right (or issit left) hand of the Father now?
In fact, Jews paid the price because the blood is on them and their children. Anti-semitism has its origins in the New Testament.
What about the physical suffering? Crucification is cruel but there is no need to exaggerate the punishment and suffering. The Jews have their fair share of martyrs. In one poignant episode, a sage was burned at the stake wrapped in no other than the Torah scroll that he taught despite the prohibition from Rome on teaching the Torah! -
Mat 16:17 cannot be used to prove Christ divinity. How so?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:While this quote is often used to prove papal infallibility, it shalt be used to prove Christ divinity.
Don't make me laugh. The gospel of Matthew was the adoptionists' (ebionites included) favourite gospel.
You think it is so easy to prove Christ divinity from their favourite gospel? -
So its going to be difficult to prove Christ divinity from one of the 4 favourite Gospel of St Irenaus, a proto-orthodox. Its going to be difficult to do so when every proto-orthodox used it? So the Church chose the wrong Gospel??? Are u certain of that?Originally posted by Icemoon:Mat 16:17 cannot be used to prove Christ divinity. How so?
Don't make me laugh. The gospel of Matthew was the adoptionists' (ebionites included) favourite gospel.
You think it is so easy to prove Christ divinity from their favourite gospel?
Address the quote. -
You obviously do not have an idea what's happening in the early church.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:So its going to be difficult to prove Christ divinity from one of the 4 favourite Gospel of St Irenaus, a proto-orthodox. Its going to be difficult to do so when every proto-orthodox used it? So the Church chose the wrong Gospel??? Are u certain of that?
So Irenaeus used it. The Ebionites also used it.
So Christians have the Old and New Testaments. Jews only have the Old Testaments.
So Christians can derive the Holy Trinity from Scripture. But Jews can't, from *their* Scripture.
Do you see a pattern here? -
So the Church chose the correct Gospel? Are you certain of that?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:So the Church chose the wrong Gospel??? Are u certain of that? -
So it begs the question of whose intepretation of Scripture is correct?Originally posted by Icemoon:You obviously do not have an idea what's happening in the early church.
So Irenaeus used it. The Ebionites also used it.
So Christians have the Old and New Testaments. Jews only have the Old Testaments.
So Christians can derive the Holy Trinity from Scripture. But Jews can't, from *their* Scripture.
Do you see a pattern here?