Did Jesus sin? The value of Jesus' temptation - discuss.
-
Originally posted by vince69:
Yes I can.
on your question, can you also show what you said here from the Bible?
ThanksLuke 3:23 NIV
Jesus began his ministry only when he was confident of not sinning. According to the bible this took him 30 years of training. Knowledge of the scripture is not the issue here as being highly intelligent, Jesus was already well versed in the scripture when he was twelve years old.
Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry.Luke 2:42,46 - 47 NIV
Consider also...
When he was twelve years old, they went up to the Feast, according to the custom.
After three days they found him in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers.Matthew 13:54-57 NIV
It is recorded in the bible that people that knew Jesus as a child were astonished when he visited them during his ministry. This shows that Jesus led a normal childhood and had the same failings as a normal boy would when he was growing up. Thus the people that knew him closely in the first 20+ years of his life regarded him as a normal person instead of the Son of God, having witness his shortcomings as a child.
Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. "Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?" they asked. "Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? Aren't all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?" And they took offense at him.
Side topic: This text also proves that Mary had other children with Joseph besides Jesus. It even lists their names clearly and mentions that Jesus had sisters as well. -
Actually Isaiah 14 is not talking about S.A. Tan.
Read it with an open mind. Read the context. It should be talking about the king of Babylon.
vince ignored the verses *after* his quote.
Isaiah 14:12 How you have fallen from heaven,
Read further. NIV even labels the next section as "A Prophecy Against Assyria" and the next as "A Prophecy Against the Philistines". This is the context. The author is talking about *mortal* enemies of Israel. Why suddenly bring in bad angel?
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. [c]
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."
15 But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit.
16 Those who see you stare at you,
they ponder your fate:
"Is this the man who shook the earth
and made kingdoms tremble,
17 the man who made the world a desert,
who overthrew its cities
and would not let his captives go home?"
18 All the kings of the nations lie in state,
each in his own tomb.
19 But you are cast out of your tomb
like a rejected branch;
you are covered with the slain,
with those pierced by the sword,
those who descend to the stones of the pit.
Like a corpse trampled underfoot,
20 you will not join them in burial,
for you have destroyed your land
and killed your people.
The offspring of the wicked
will never be mentioned again.
21 Prepare a place to slaughter his sons
for the sins of their forefathers;
they are not to rise to inherit the land
and cover the earth with their cities.
22 "I will rise up against them,"
declares the LORD Almighty.
"I will cut off from Babylon her name and survivors,
her offspring and descendants,"
declares the LORD.
23 "I will turn her into a place for owls
and into swampland;
I will sweep her with the broom of destruction,"
declares the LORD Almighty. -
Im gonna follow Summa Theologica Format
Objection 1:
Jesus began his ministry only when he was confident of not sinning. According to the bible this took him 30 years of training. Knowledge of the scripture is not the issue here as being highly intelligent, Jesus was already well versed in the scripture when he was twelve years old.
Objection 2:
It is recorded in the bible that people that knew Jesus as a child were astonished when he visited them during his ministry. This shows that Jesus led a normal childhood and had the same failings as a normal boy would when he was growing up. Thus the people that knew him closely in the first 20+ years of his life regarded him as a normal person instead of the Son of God, having witness his shortcomings as a child.
Objection 3:
Mary had other children with Joseph besides Jesus
My Reply:
This person follows the heresy of Adoptionism implicitly. By arguing that Christ was not divine and that any man could be divine in 30 years of hard work is purely New-Age heresy. I denounce u Skibi, I denounce you.
Rebuttal 1:
Skibi argues that Christ was MAN until he turned 30. His arguments points that Christ (as man) was able to become GOD in merely 30 years. This is hardly a position of rationality as it bellitles God to merely perfected Man. I point the verse of John 1:1 and 1;14In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. - John 1:1
And the Word became flesh 9 and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father's only Son, full of grace and truth - John 1:14
The verses clearly proves that Christ was borned divine. Christ was not borned purely mortal or else John would have been mistaken as he argues that God was made flesh in the very first chapter of the Gospel.
Rebuttal 2:
This rebuttal seeks to go further and show that Christ was divine from conception. Clearly in Luke it says so:When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit,
This clearly shows that Jesus was Lord even in Mary's womb as Elizabeth inspired by the Holy Spirit calls her Mother of Lord. The holy spirit cannot lie so we can safely assume Mary is the Mother of God and hence Jesus MUST naturally be God since conception.
42
cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.
43
And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord 14 should come to me?
44
For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. 45
Blessed are you who believed 15 that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled."
46
And Mary said: 16 "My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord;
Rebuttal 3:
The verse u have quoted has been refuted by elementary apologist and even the Reformers.Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala. John 19:25
:3
Among them were Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee. Mat 27:56
Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James, the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddeus; Mat 10
Alpheus = Clopas in Aramic.
So James is the son of Clopas whose wife is Mary (Virgin's sister) and hence James and Joseph are Jesus cousins. Mark 6:3, the word 'brother' can also meen cousins in Hebrew. And Scripture ALONE clearly proves they are his cousins. -
Like I said, I infer only hoh ... infer means open for dispute...Originally posted by Icemoon:Actually Isaiah 14 is not talking about S.A. Tan.
Read it with an open mind. Read the context. It should be talking about the king of Babylon.
vince ignored the verses *after* his quote.
Isaiah 14:
Read further. NIV even labels the next section as "A Prophecy Against Assyria" and the next as "A Prophecy Against the Philistines". This is the context. The author is talking about *mortal* enemies of Israel. Why suddenly bring in bad angel?
true, Isaiah begins with God having compassion with the house of Jacob
verse 1:
The LORD will have compassion on Jacob;
once again he will choose Israel
and will settle them in their own land.
Aliens will join them
and unite with the house of Jacob
and verse 3 to 23 most likely refer to Babylon.
only thing that can be infered (meaning, guess guess one) is that verse 13 and 14 talks about someone who wants to set up his throne above the stars of God and made himself above the Most High (God). -
glad you are open minded.Originally posted by vince69:and verse 3 to 23 most likely refer to Babylon.
Christians love to use these verses as support for the fall of Satan. I say they are trying to pervert Scripture.
Satan is the righteous servant of God. -
My answer was that your view is not in-line with the orthodox view. It is a stand most, if not all, churches adopt.Originally posted by Skibi:Can you show us proof from the bible?
Can you tell us which church shares your views? -
why don't you show us your claims instead.... after all you started this thread.Originally posted by Skibi:Can you show us proof from the bible? -
Your conclusion is not factual. It is a personal opinion.Originally posted by Skibi:Matthew 13:54-57 NIV
Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. "Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?" they asked. "Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? Aren't all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?" And they took offense at him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is recorded in the bible that people that knew Jesus as a child were astonished when he visited them during his ministry. This shows that Jesus led a normal childhood and had the same failings as a normal boy would when he was growing up. Thus the people that knew him closely in the first 20+ years of his life regarded him as a normal person instead of the Son of God, having witness his shortcomings as a child.
I would also be opined that they took offense in Jesus because he had a "dubious" origin (Mary was pregnant before being bethrothed to Joseph [Matthew 1:18]). In the eyes of the crowd, he is not worthy to teach or to have that kind of wisdom. Hence he was despised.
BUT it is not stated in the bible that he sinned, it is only your speculation. -
SkibiOriginally posted by Skibi:It is recorded in the bible that people that knew Jesus as a child were astonished when he visited them during his ministry. This shows that Jesus led a normal childhood and had the same failings as a normal boy would when he was growing up. Thus the people that knew him closely in the first 20+ years of his life regarded him as a normal person instead of the Son of God, having witness his shortcomings as a child.
Side topic: This text also proves that Mary had other children with Joseph besides Jesus. It even lists their names clearly and mentions that Jesus had sisters as well.
Thanks for your reply,
I have to point out that what you are saying here is a matter of personal opinion and not substantiated by the verses you mentioned (at most we can say, you are reading between the lines).
As to why he was not well received at His home town, Jesus have this explaination
As to how Jesus' childhood till adulthood is about, the Bible has only this to say, that he grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.
Mark 6:4-6 (NIV)
4Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a prophet without honor." 5He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6And he was amazed at their lack of faith.
As to why it took him till 30yrs old to begin his ministry? I am not sure,
Luke 2 : 51-52
51Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart. 52And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men.
(Just my opinion, not really found in Bible) perhaps He need to grow older first as the people may not take the teaching of a young man seriously? perhaps He have to wait for people to be ready? or most likely, He is waiting for John the Baptist to begin his ministry and pave the way for Him as in prepare the heart of the people?
-
Actually it is quite obvious why Jesus started his ministry at 30 years old right?
Because Elijah has not appeared! Remember in the prophecy .. Elijah has to usher in the new messiah!
Elijah is reincarnated?! as .. John the Baptist!
And wasn't John the Baptist missing in the early years?
-
Remember John the Baptist was only a few months older than Jesus.
30 years old is a good time to start your evangelistic career. Even Jesuit priests take 13 years to finish their Jesuit course.
-
Thats a good point. Haha i liked my Summa Theoligca format in the earlier post...one day, people gonna call me the Angelic Doctor LOL.Originally posted by Icemoon:Remember John the Baptist was only a few months older than Jesus.
30 years old is a good time to start your evangelistic career. Even Jesuit priests take 13 years to finish their Jesuit course.
What is your view of the Transfiguration? -
Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Thats a good point. Haha i liked my Summa Theoligca format in the earlier post...one day, people gonna call me the Angelic Doctor LOL.
What is your view of the Transfiguration? yes, its a refreshing style ... -
Jesus came to earth as a man, not as God.Originally posted by sillyme:
Your conclusion is not factual. It is a personal opinion.
BUT it is not stated in the bible that he sinned, it is only your speculation.[/quote]
The bible was compiled by the catholic church. In order to depict Jesus as "sinless" and not cause unnecessary confusion at that time, records of Jesus early childhood up to the time just before he entered his ministry were intentionally left out of the official compilation. However some clues were left for us to follow as I have pointed out.One important point to note is that it is also not stated conclusively in the bible that Jesus never sinned in the first 30 years of his life. This is because the church fathers were God fearing enough to refrain from editing the gospels.
Consider...
[quote]Ecclesiastes 7 NIV
There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins. -
Originally posted by Skibi:
Skibi
The bible was compiled by the catholic church. In order to depict Jesus as "sinless" and not cause unnecessary confusion at that time, records of Jesus early childhood up to the time just before he entered his ministry were intentionally left out of the official compilation. However some clues were left for us to follow as I have pointed out.
[b]One important point to note is that it is also not stated conclusively in the bible that Jesus never sinned in the first 30 years of his life. This is because the church fathers were God fearing enough to refrain from editing the gospels.[/b]
you do know that taking things out of the gospel is also "editing the gospel" ?
so how can you on one hand say, they are God fearing and refrain from editing the gospel, yet on the other hand said they edit the gospel by removing accounts from it?
btw... no mentioning of it, also does not means He had done it.
example : a person who had not committed any crime, will not have any criminal records. so by not having any record, does this means he had committed crime before? since there is no record of him not committing any crime as well. -
Tiring....
-
* gives M© a chair and a foot stool ...Originally posted by M©+square:Tiring.... -
Where's our bunk? Still around?Originally posted by vince69:* gives M© a chair and a foot stool ... -
I think that nobody seriously took note of Jesus before he started his ministry. How reliable are those accounts of his life before that?
The important point is that despite his human nature, he was able to submit to the will of the Father and therefore remain sinless. -
siir, you want maassaagee?Originally posted by M©+square:Tiring.... -
the bunk had already been upgraded ... with additional levels ... pls proceed with care ...Originally posted by M©+square:Where's our bunk? Still around? -
That depends on who is the masseurOriginally posted by sillyme:siir, you want maassaagee?
And how much? -
actually... the 4 Gospel that recorded the teaching of Jesus when He walks on the earth... Matthew (Apostle), Mark (some says Mark is a narration of Peter's account), Luke (Investigation, some says he interviewed the other Apostles, and even some eye witness account ...etc), John (Apostle),...Originally posted by sillyme:I think that nobody seriously took note of Jesus before he started his ministry. How reliable are those accounts of his life before that?
The important point is that despite his human nature, he was able to submit to the will of the Father and therefore remain sinless.
Most, if not all these people only know about Jesus after He begins His ministry, only a few hand full, perhaps like His mother Mary and His brothers know about His childhood (but they are not the one who write the gospels). -
Packing Field pack to check in....Originally posted by vince69:the bunk had already been upgraded ... with additional levels ... pls proceed with care ... -
Ya, I assumed that Skibi read accounts of Jesus turning clay pigeons alive in his childhood, etc. So I am questiong how authentic are those accounts?Originally posted by vince69:actually... the 4 Gospel that recorded the teaching of Jesus when He walks on the earth... Matthew (Apostle), Mark (some says Mark is a narration of Peter's account), Luke (Investigation, some says he interviewed the other Apostles, and even some eye witness account ...etc), John (Apostle),...
Most, if not all these people only know about Jesus after He begins His ministry, only a few hand full, perhaps like His mother Mary and His brothers know about His childhood (but they are not the one who write the gospels).
Very dodgy mah.