Did Jesus sin? The value of Jesus' temptation - discuss.
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Originally posted by Icemoon:
When Jesus was reincarnated as a mortal and forgot his memories as a God, he did sin numerous times as a child and growing up into adulthood. In this sense he is truly a normal human like the rest of us. The only thing different is that Mary told him that he is the Son of God. The other things Mary taught Jesus was to be righteous - firstly to do good deeds and try not to sin, if this fails... to always repent of his sins and have God absolve them according to the Jewish customs, and to make a sincere effort not to sin again.
Actually it is not possible that you don't sin. Unless you are God. By the way, the Protestants think Jesus cannot be tempted. If he cannot be tempted, where lies the value in the temptation?
Eventually Jesus learnt to control his human propensity for sinning after many failures while growing up and was able to live a perfect life without commiting any sin and doing only good deeds. This was the time when God called Jesus to perform his ministry.
So where lies the value in the temptation?
Satan already had proof that Jesus could sin by watching him grow up. Thus the temptation is valid. Jesus' life is an example for all of us to follow that it is possible to sin less and less until eventually we have no need to sin at all if we are sincere in repentance and cultivate a good character and do good deeds.
But Jesus is "sinless"?
Yes, Jesus is sinless because he make the effort to repent his sins and have God absolve them. Once our sins are absolved by God there is no more record in God's eyes. Thus we can also be sinless and ascend to heaven like Enoch and Elijah. -
Hmm .. what heresy is this?Originally posted by Skibi:When Jesus was reincarnated as a mortal and forgot his memories as a God, he did sin numerous times as a child and growing up into adulthood. In this sense he is truly a normal human like the rest of us.
Sounds like adoptionism. -
I always thought the bible or christian claim he is sinless but now u claim he always sin ? I believe there r many men, maybe the pope, who can be as "sinless" as him and as such Jesus is no longer exceptional.
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i tot jesus did not sin from the start of his human life ?
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Let it be known that Skibi's line of thought is not the orthodox Christian's point of view.
Jesus is sinless. -
We all acknowleedge Jesus is sinless...even Muslims.
The question is, did Jesus had the capability to sin?
I say yes as he posssesed human nature. -
Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:
(just my opinion)
We all acknowleedge Jesus is sinless...even Muslims.
[b]The question is, did Jesus had the capability to sin?
I say yes as he posssesed human nature.[/b]
did Jesus have the capability to sin? ..... maybe ... cause I am not sure
is Jesus subject to temptation? probably yes, yet He had overcome and hence remain sinless.
*edit : found a better word
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I can surely say tat Jesus can see the future (claims a lot of future events like his death) and know tat tis being is the devil (recognise the devil, literally). Given tis 2 conditions, only very dumb people will fall into the trap set by the devil. If u know the devil is trying to tempt u and u know the future of wat happened later, will u fall into the devil's trap ?
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If the devil comes up to you and tell u that he will let u rule the world and all its riches and in return worship him...what will u say?Originally posted by stupidissmart:I can surely say tat Jesus can see the future (claims a lot of future events like his death) and know tat tis being is the devil (recognise the devil, literally). Given tis 2 conditions, only very dumb people will fall into the trap set by the devil. If u know the devil is trying to tempt u and u know the future of wat happened later, will u fall into the devil's trap ?
The hardest temptation is when you know the Devil's promises is true. Jesus knew the Devil was telling him the truth (abt letting him rule the world). When that happens, it boils between what is right and what is easy. -
Actually, in my opinion, Jesus probably know the Devil is not saying the truth.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:If the devil comes up to you and tell u that he will let u rule the world and all its riches and in return worship him...what will u say?
The hardest temptation is when you know the Devil's promises is true. Jesus knew the Devil was telling him the truth (abt letting him rule the world). When that happens, it boils between what is right and what is easy. -
If the devil comes up to you and tell u that he will let u rule the world and all its riches and in return worship him...what will u say?
If I am the son of god and I am omnipotent, then i will say no because I do not need his help to rule the world and all its riches
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come to think of it .. the devil really so dumb meh? go and tempt God Himself.Originally posted by stupidissmart:If I am the son of god and I am omnipotent, then i will say no because I do not need his help to rule the world and all its riches -
It was still possible for the devil to corrupt Christ human nature. If not that Christ did not die a painful nor bloody death as he was God and could feel no pain. He could feel pain as he possed human nature. He could still sin as he possesed human nature.Originally posted by Icemoon:come to think of it .. the devil really so dumb meh? go and tempt God Himself. -
if the devil knows about God's redemption plan is for Jesus to die on the cross, do you think he will do everything he can to prevent Jesus' death? or may even sends all his demons to go protect Jesus instead?Originally posted by Icemoon:come to think of it .. the devil really so dumb meh? go and tempt God Himself.
This probably shows that the Devid is not that all knowing, does it? -
I thought devil also can read Scripture?Originally posted by vince69:if the devil knows about God's redemption plan is for Jesus to die on the cross, do you think he will do everything he can to prevent Jesus' death? or may even sends all his demons to go protect Jesus instead?
This probably shows that the Devid is not that all knowing, does it?
If God's redemption plan is evident from the OT .. the devil would have known it.
Ironically .. this point somehow proves that God's redemption plan is not at all obvious from the OT. -
if magi can see the star, maybe devil also can see it.
then why didn't the devil make Mary suffer miscarriage? -
and the devil did see the stars ... but hoh, like the magi, by the time they found him, Jesus already born .... (by the way, you think those hordes of angels that happen to be in that area for show one ah, of course God would have been protecting Mary also lah, else call her blessed and full of grace?)Originally posted by Icemoon:if magi can see the star, maybe devil also can see it.
then why didn't the devil make Mary suffer miscarriage? -
Originally posted by sillyme:
Can you show us proof from the bible?
Let it be known that Skibi's line of thought is not the orthodox Christian's point of view.
Jesus is sinless. -
Originally posted by Skibi:Can you show us proof from the bible?
on your question, can you also show what you said here from the Bible?Originally posted by Skibi:When Jesus was reincarnated as a mortal and forgot his memories as a God, he did sin numerous times as a child and growing up into adulthood. In this sense he is truly a normal human like the rest of us. The only thing different is that Mary told him that he is the Son of God. The other things Mary taught Jesus was to be righteous - firstly to do good deeds and try not to sin, if this fails... to always repent of his sins and have God absolve them according to the Jewish customs, and to make a sincere effort not to sin again.
Eventually Jesus learnt to control his human propensity for sinning after many failures while growing up and was able to live a perfect life without commiting any sin and doing only good deeds. This was the time when God called Jesus to perform his ministry.
So where lies the value in the temptation?
Satan already had proof that Jesus could sin by watching him grow up. Thus the temptation is valid. Jesus' life is an example for all of us to follow that it is possible to sin less and less until eventually we have no need to sin at all if we are sincere in repentance and cultivate a good character and do good deeds.
But Jesus is "sinless"?
Yes, Jesus is sinless because he make the effort to repent his sins and have God absolve them. Once our sins are absolved by God there is no more record in God's eyes. Thus we can also be sinless and ascend to heaven like Enoch and Elijah.
Thanks -
the magi slow mah. angels can run very fast you know?Originally posted by vince69:and the devil did see the stars ... but hoh, like the magi, by the time they found him, Jesus already born .... (by the way, you think those hordes of angels that happen to be in that area for show one ah, of course God would have been protecting Mary also lah, else call her blessed and full of grace?)
it is written somewhere 2/3 of the angels rebelled with Satan. In terms of numbers, those hordes of angels might not win the firefight.
We dunno what are Satan's powers. If he can lead angels to rebellion, maybe he can *convert* the hordes of angels to betray god. -
But didnt St Michael defeated Satan in a sinlge fight and stabbed him on his side. If Michael could take on Satan, surely the rest of the 1/3 who rebelled are meaningless.Originally posted by Icemoon:the magi slow mah. angels can run very fast you know?
it is written somewhere 2/3 of the angels rebelled with Satan. In terms of numbers, those hordes of angels might not win the firefight.
We dunno what are Satan's powers. If he can lead angels to rebellion, maybe he can *convert* the hordes of angels to betray god.
Is it true Satan rebelled because he refused to worship the Image of God - us??? -
WAH .. where you read the stabbing one??Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:But didnt St Michael defeated Satan in a sinlge fight and stabbed him on his side. If Michael could take on Satan, surely the rest of the 1/3 who rebelled are meaningless.
Is it true Satan rebelled because he refused to worship the Image of God - us???
Well .. even when it is true .. Satan could have leverage on his intelligence. If you believe the serpent was Satan, then Satan is one cunning bast*ard. In general, good guys very hard to win cunning people.
No joke .. Satan dared to meet God alone in Job. He even mingled with other angels (presumably good angels) and he still bo daiji. In the end, Satan escaped unscathed. -
no, Satan (infered one hah) rebelled because he think he can be god and he demanded to be worshipped.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:But didnt St Michael defeated Satan in a sinlge fight and stabbed him on his side. If Michael could take on Satan, surely the rest of the 1/3 who rebelled are meaningless.
Is it true Satan rebelled because he refused to worship the Image of God - us??? -
I think that theory of mine is from quran...not too sure. Did Scripture give a reason?Originally posted by vince69:no, Satan (infered one hah) rebelled because he think he can be god and he demanded to be worshipped. -
infered fromOriginally posted by Pope Nicholas:I think that theory of mine is from quran...not too sure. Did Scripture give a reason?
*morning star, son of the dawn is also refer to Lucifer (aka S. A. Tan)
Isaiah 14:12-15 (NIV)
12 How you have fallen from heaven,
O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth,
you who once laid low the nations!
13 You said in your heart,
"I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
above the stars of God;
I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly,
on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain.
14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds;
I will make myself like the Most High."
15 But you are brought down to the grave,
to the depths of the pit.