Book Of Genesis Qustions
-
A word of note .. Catholics actually have pretty good understanding of Genesis. I have this impression from the exchange with Catholics here.
Anyway the Catholic understanding of Genesis has always been allegorical. Which is why you don't see the Pope rallying against evolution and big bang.
In fact, the theory of evolution wasn't exactly new in 1859 (publication of Origin of Species). The Catholic Church actually tolerated evolutionistic thinking before Darwin. -
The message is more important. Whereas Christians see it as Original Sin, Jews see it differently. Not very different lah, they also admit Adam did sin, but the consequence is different.Originally posted by mhcampboy:haha alright.
but from your understanding, what do you think its trying to tell us? That God has other humans kept in heaven as well?
Based on the Hebrew reading, Jews can accept that Adam was evolved, as in God did not mould Adam from the ground like some plasticine figure. This insight did not even come from modern bible translation - it was from some ancient bible translation.
The whether-got-other-human-beings is not important. Perhaps God trusts us to make a judgement based on modern science. Interestingly, before the advent of modern science, Jews already have the idea that there are other generations before Adam. -
Im afraid i cannot accept that theory. Bible has proof that Adam was the first human created in heaven then exiled to earth.Originally posted by Icemoon:The message is more important. Whereas Christians see it as Original Sin, Jews see it differently. Not very different lah, they also admit Adam did sin, but the consequence is different.
Based on the Hebrew reading, Jews can accept that Adam was evolved, as in God did not mould Adam from the ground like some plasticine figure. This insight did not even come from modern bible translation - it was from some ancient bible translation.
The whether-got-other-human-beings is not important. Perhaps God trusts us to make a judgement based on modern science. Interestingly, before the advent of modern science, Jews already have the idea that there are other generations before Adam.
If u talking abt beings apart from humans which exist b4 adam...maybe yes.. such as angels or demons... -
Then why does god have to punish everyone in the world for wat 2 individual did ? Does tat means female is already made before eve and is not formed by the ribcage of adam ? Doesn't tat means the other human know nothing about good and evil ? Why do we inherit original sin ?
-
Well, if you have read chapter 5 of genesis, you will know that they lived very long and have produced many sons and daughters.Originally posted by mhcampboy:Anyone can explain the following passages:
Adam and Eve have 2 offsprings. Cain and Abel. Cain then killed Abel.
So in the world, only got Adam, Eve and Cain right?
But in...
chapter 4 verse 14
13 Cain said to the LORD, "My punishment is more than I can bear. 14 Today you are driving me from the land, and I will be hidden from your presence; I will be a restless wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me."
and God replied
15 But the LORD said to him, "Not so [e] ; if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over." Then the LORD put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. 16 So Cain went out from the LORD's presence and lived in the land of Nod, [f] east of Eden.
So who else apart from them 3 would kill Cain? Is there anyone else?
And
verse 17
17 Cain lay with his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch. Cain was then building a city, and he named it after his son Enoch.
Where did the wife came from? No other humans rite on earth tat time?
Can someone pls guide me...
So if every year they produce one, by the time Adam died, he will have few hundreds of sons and daughters....and each of these sons and daughters produced more children....there must have at least few thousands of them.
And one thing, most likely they inter marry each other.....
But one thing i don't understand is that on Chapter 6 of genesis is that "sons of God went to daughters of men and have children with them"? -
First human created in Heaven? Where did you read that?Originally posted by mhcampboy:Im afraid i cannot accept that theory. Bible has proof that Adam was the first human created in heaven then exiled to earth.
If u talking abt beings apart from humans which exist b4 adam...maybe yes.. such as angels or demons...
He was the first human, certainly. Jews also think that way, no issue.
I was glad to read the Jewish commentary/exegesis on Genesis and was somehow humbled. I was like .. wow Christianity never taught me that.
Other beings need not be angels and demons. Every being is a creation of God, even the baddie you call Satan. -
Original sin is a Christian thinking, Jews don't believe in that.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Then why does god have to punish everyone in the world for wat 2 individual did ? Does tat means female is already made before eve and is not formed by the ribcage of adam ? Doesn't tat means the other human know nothing about good and evil ? Why do we inherit original sin ?
I read the Jewish exegesis/commentary on Genesis. The author challenges the reader to answer the question:
1. What exactly is good and evil?
2. How different is it from "correct" and "wrong"?
Reference verse Genesis 2:9 - And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
PS: Judaism constantly challenges the reader with questions. In fact, rabbis are famous for answering a question with a question. -
About the Eve, do u have any answer to it ? Does tis means the part where eve was formed from adam rib is actually redundant since females r already present in abundance before.
Wat is good end evil ? Good means doing things tat benefit more parties and hurt less people in the end while evil is the opposite.
Wat is correct or wrong ? Correct means making the right decision which may not be good or evil. It can be something silly like walking the right way which doesn't benefit or harm anybody
So wat is your interpretation ? -
Actually I am here to ask questions, not to answer them.Originally posted by stupidissmart:About the Eve, do u have any answer to it ? Does tis means the part where eve was formed from adam rib is actually redundant since females r already present in abundance before.
Wat is good end evil ? Good means doing things tat benefit more parties and hurt less people in the end while evil is the opposite.
Wat is correct or wrong ? Correct means making the right decision which may not be good or evil. It can be something silly like walking the right way which doesn't benefit or harm anybody
So wat is your interpretation ?
Do you know why I asked the question about good/evil and correct/wrong? Because before Eve ate that fruit, does she have knowledge of good and evil or not?
And also the question what is so bad about knowing good and evil. -
Actually I am here to ask questions, not to answer them.
If u ask me, the whole story simply doesn't make sense to me and truthfully, I don't know why do god wanna prevent adam and eve from knowing wat is good and evil. Why is knowledge ever a bad thing ?
Do you know why I asked the question about good/evil and correct/wrong? Because before Eve ate that fruit, does she have knowledge of good and evil or not?
And also the question what is so bad about knowing good and evil. -
When something doesn't make sense, do we give up? No, we should try to make sense. Hopefully we can arrive at something that makes sense.Originally posted by stupidissmart:If u ask me, the whole story simply doesn't make sense to me and truthfully, I don't know why do god wanna prevent adam and eve from knowing wat is good and evil. Why is knowledge ever a bad thing ?
Actually I'm not sure whether knowledge is a good or bad thing.
But it is quite clear that after eating the fruit, their actions were displeasing to God. It is not the act alone that is displeasing, but how they handle the situation afterwards that is displeasing.
Point to note, the biblical description for some of their actions is quite strange, i.e. doesn't make much sense. Indeed, there is always a deeper meaning to things that don't make sense or sound strange.
I give you an example. Remember after eating the fruit, Adam was hiding from God? Notice the bible describes that:
1. God was asking the whereabouts of Adam. Haha .. you mean God dunno where is Adam?
2. When asked the reason for his hiding, what did Adam say? Don't flip the bible yet! Ask yourself - if you were in Adam's shoe, what would you have said? After that you flip the bible. Viola .. Adam's reply was not what you have expected! -
It may be a bad thing perhaps when you cannot manage and apply it properly?Originally posted by stupidissmart:If u ask me, the whole story simply doesn't make sense to me and truthfully, I don't know why do god wanna prevent adam and eve from knowing wat is good and evil. Why is knowledge ever a bad thing ? -
When something doesn't make sense, do we give up? No, we should try to make sense. Hopefully we can arrive at something that makes sense.
Your theory is good only if we know it is definitely right in the first place such as observing a natural phenomenon. In the first place, the bible is not definitely correct and it is impossible to make something not correct become correct. It is like making fairytales or fiction to be truth, which is impossibleBut it is quite clear that after eating the fruit, their actions were displeasing to God. It is not the act alone that is displeasing, but how they handle the situation afterwards that is displeasing.
Frankly sometimes the "deeper meanings" all sounds more like excuses than fact... one example is on one book someone say judas hang himself and on another it say he buy a field and then suddenly die. The "deeper meaning" from catholic website is he hang himself but did not die so he buy a field and suddenly die. It is not wrong but it sounds forced and unnatural. Furthermore sometimes trying to make sense to one portion will ultimately make other portion senseless
Point to note, the biblical description for some of their actions is quite strange, i.e. doesn't make much sense. Indeed, there is always a deeper meaning to things that don't make sense or sound strange.I give you an example. Remember after eating the fruit, Adam was hiding from God? Notice the bible describes that:
.... I don't know wat is your point here...
1. God was asking the whereabouts of Adam. Haha .. you mean God dunno where is Adam?
2. When asked the reason for his hiding, what did Adam say? Don't flip the bible yet! Ask yourself - if you were in Adam's shoe, what would you have said? After that you flip the bible. Viola .. Adam's reply was not what you have expected!It may be a bad thing perhaps when you cannot manage and apply it properly?
Isn't that where free will come to play here ? Without giving knowledge u r really not giving free will on tat subject but practise censorship. I just think of an example of "gun" and "nuclear science" and I feel that mankind is still better off having these knowledge so tat they can protect themselves from beast and also make use of it to develop nuclear power. -
Bible is not definitely correct?Originally posted by stupidissmart:Your theory is good only if we know it is definitely right in the first place such as observing a natural phenomenon. In the first place, the bible is not definitely correct and it is impossible to make something not correct become correct. It is like making fairytales or fiction to be truth, which is impossible
You already form your conclusion liao .. what do you want me to say? -
Bible is not definitely correct?
I don't think tat is a wrong conclusion. I did not say it is definitely wrong, but treat it as though u treat any new story u hear by labeling as "maybe right or wrong" first. Don't tell me u immediately jump to the conclusion tat it is right without even reading it ?
You already form your conclusion liao .. what do you want me to say? -
I don't think God has a problem of us having knowledge in the matters of science or how the physical world works.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Isn't that where free will come to play here ? Without giving knowledge u r really not giving free will on tat subject but practise censorship. I just think of an example of "gun" and "nuclear science" and I feel that mankind is still better off having these knowledge so tat they can protect themselves from beast and also make use of it to develop nuclear power.
I think that the knowledge of good and evil is different from scientific knowledge or alike -
I don't think God has a problem of us having knowledge in the matters of science or how the physical world works.
Then why is more knowledge ever bad ? Why do u think it is bad to have a knowledge of good end evil ? Doesn't tat prevent u from committing evil unintentionally ?
I think that the knowledge of good and evil is different from scientific knowledge or alike -
Yes, maybe right or maybe wrong.Originally posted by stupidissmart:I don't think tat is a wrong conclusion. I did not say it is definitely wrong, but treat it as though u treat any new story u hear by labeling as "maybe right or wrong" first. Don't tell me u immediately jump to the conclusion tat it is right without even reading it ?
I did not jump to conclusion that it is right. I said there is a more logical way to look at Scripture. You disagree with the Christian explanation doesn't mean Scripture is now hopeless and wrong.
I did not read? Hello .. I invited the reader of my post to read (or re-read) Genesis again and ask questions. Obviously I have read right. -
Once you have the knowledge of commiting good and evil, u have the potential to commit such acts. Once Adam knew the knowledge of sins, he would be able to commit them as well. The humans created by God were his children and did not need to know what is right and wrong for there is only one law, and that is God. However Adam disobedience caused a rift and with the potent combination of rift and the potential to sin, we have been separated.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Then why is more knowledge ever bad ? Why do u think it is bad to have a knowledge of good end evil ? Doesn't tat prevent u from committing evil unintentionally ?
I will not say Adam descendants are being punished, But rather we are suffering from Adam's actions of gaining greater knowledge. He passed the knowledge and the potential to use such knowledge (to sin or to do good) to us. All of us have done both and it is the sin bit that prevents us from returning back to Eden. -
Before the fruit .. no such knowledge.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Once you have the knowledge of commiting good and evil, u have the potential to commit such acts. Once Adam knew the knowledge of sins, he would be able to commit them as well.
so Adam did not sin before the fruit? As in even his disobedience wasn't a sin? -
Yes, maybe right or maybe wrong.
Well then since it can be wrong, why do we have to force something tat doesn't make sense, right ? U can try to make it right but if in the end it is wrong despite efforts then do we still carry on ? It seems to be as futile as trying to make the story of snow white become a scientific journal
I did not jump to conclusion that it is right. I said there is a more logical way to look at Scripture. You disagree with the Christian explanation doesn't mean Scripture is now hopeless and wrong.
I did not read? Hello .. I invited the reader of my post to read (or re-read) Genesis again and ask questions. Obviously I have read right.Once you have the knowledge of commiting good and evil, u have the potential to commit such acts. Once Adam knew the knowledge of sins, he would be able to commit them as well. The humans created by God were his children and did not need to know what is right and wrong for there is only one law, and that is God. However Adam disobedience caused a rift and with the potent combination of rift and the potential to sin, we have been separated.
I think your idea of "knowledge of good and evil" is different from wat I think. If I do not have knowledge of good and evil doesn't mean I do not do evil. I may still create a lot of evil and sin but without caring and knowing it is wrong. Just like the snake is evil into making eve eat the fruit when it itself does not know wat is good end evil. When we know wat is good and evil, we try to prevent ourselves from committing evil and sin, (such as covering themselves with leaves when they thought being naked is "bad" ) tis in a way is good for "goodness". If u felt tat having knowledge of good and evil is bad, then why do god have tis knowledgeI will not say Adam descendants are being punished, But rather we are suffering from Adam's actions of gaining greater knowledge. He passed the knowledge and the potential to use such knowledge (to sin or to do good) to us. All of us have done both and it is the sin bit that prevents us from returning back to Eden.
Why call it "original sin" and not "original knowledge" then ? -
As I said earlier, it is bad when you cannot manage it properly.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Then why is more knowledge ever bad ? Why do u think it is bad to have a knowledge of good end evil ? Doesn't tat prevent u from committing evil unintentionally ?
I think we humans, as limited beings, do not have to capability of judging what is good and evil properly. No one can agree what real justice is. We get it right sometimes, but most of the time humankind has failed in bringing justice.
Whether we would commit evil unintentionally if Adam and Eve had not eaten from the tree, I do not know an answer. Perhaps before they ate from the tree, everything was good. There was nothing else they need to know except to abide in God. But this is just a guess from my side. Maybe the others have a better perspective. -
As I said earlier, it is bad when you cannot manage it properly.
Then wat we lack is more knowledge and not less knowledgeI think we humans, as limited beings, do not have to capability of judging what is good and evil properly. No one can agree what real justice is. We get it right sometimes, but most of the time humankind has failed in bringing justice.
Does tat means the fruit of knowledge of good and evil is faulty ? After eating it we still do not have an ida of wat is good and evil ?Whether we would commit evil unintentionally if Adam and Eve had not eaten from the tree, I do not know an answer. Perhaps before they ate from the tree, everything was good. There was nothing else they need to know except to abide in God. But this is just a guess from my side. Maybe the others have a better perspective.
I think the snake, adam and eve have all committed evil unintentionally before they eat the fruit. And obviously tat is not good. -
Will reading St Aquinas 5 proof why God exist help in this thread?
-
I believe that Genesis is allegorical.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Does tat means the fruit of knowledge of good and evil is faulty ? After eating it we still do not have an ida of wat is good and evil ?
Eating it is not a like taking potion, you suddenly get intelligence plus infinity. Eating from the tree is simply an act of man disobeying God, wanting to take control of his own life.
Yes we still have no idea what is good and evil, at least not completely.