Saved?
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Is it right to go around saying you are saved or they were saved etc etc???
How do we know that we are saved (or in the process of being saved)? -
The beer-drinking Luther asked this question.
The rest .. is history.
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Question is, after being 'saved', what's next till death?
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gee, I don't know, ... have fun@EH till then?Originally posted by laurence82:Question is, after being 'saved', what's next till death?
(***just thought I throw in this one before unker come and kick me) -
dont knowOriginally posted by vince69:gee, I don't know, ... have fun@EH till then?
(***just thought I throw in this one before unker come and kick me)
sometimes observing a few people, i tot being saved means kena elevated to a saint -
a saint? do I look like one?Originally posted by laurence82:dont know
sometimes observing a few people, i tot being saved means kena elevated to a saint sorry ... what is happening to me? I think I need to go take some medication ... -
being saved means you learn the laws of the kingdom and learn what it means to be a child of the Father, it means you learn how to serve and to give of yourself.Originally posted by laurence82:dont know
sometimes observing a few people, i tot being saved means kena elevated to a saint -
yeap, kinda agree with that although i dont know what others will sayOriginally posted by breytonhartge:being saved means you learn the laws of the kingdom and learn what it means to be a child of the Father, it means you learn how to serve and to give of yourself. -
hmmm they might start throwing rotten vegies at me...Originally posted by laurence82:yeap, kinda agree with that although i dont know what others will say -
are you drunk? raided the wine cellar again?Originally posted by vince69:a saint? do I look like one? sorry ... what is happening to me? I think I need to go take some medication ... 
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u r not save until the day u die n see God with ur very own eyes.
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1Jo 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Is it right to go around saying you are saved or they were saved etc etc???
How do we know that we are saved (or in the process of being saved)?
Joh 5:24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
NOTE: Eternal life primarily does not refer to quantity. It is a quality of life. IT IS THE LIFE OF CHRIST JESUS [THE ETERNAL LIFE HIMSELF] in the Christian.
2Co 6:2 For He says: "In an acceptable time I have heard you, And in the day of salvation I have helped you." Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.
You can have eternal life NOW. In other words you can be saved now and know it.
Salvation [having eternal life ETC.], is both an event and a process. This will be completed when the Christian's frail body is transformed into the likeness of the ONE who saved him.
The Christian has been saved, is being saved will be saved. The Christian has been saved from the penalty of sin, is being saved from the enslaving power of sin and will be saved ultimately when he is glorified from the presence of sin.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
1Co 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
Ro 13:11 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.
So dont be confused when you can read in the Bible that the Christians are already saved, is being saved and will be saved. Or the Christian has eternal life now and will yet inherit eternal life in the future.
salvation is both an event and a process that happens when one turns to the Savior alone for salvation and is completed when the already saved sinner has been conformed into the likeness of the One who saved him at the resurrection of the just. -
But didnt say he himself didnt know whether he will be saved and that he was working his salvation with trembling???
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Paul knew that he was saved:Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:But didnt say he himself didnt know whether he will be saved and that he was working his salvation with trembling???
Tit 3:4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
Tit 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
He knew that he was saved and wrote about it.
Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
This is the second aspect of salvation, namely sanctification. Notice that the verse does NOT say: "Work FOR your salvation......."
It says: "Work Out your own salvation........." The words "work out" is one word in Greek. And it has the idea of manifesting or making evident.
In other words Paul was exhorting them to make manifest their salvation in thier lives through holy living [just continue reading and you will see this]. They are already saved so they are to act saved.
These Philippians were already saved, in fact God is IN them already working in them to wil and to do of His good pleasure:
Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure
Parallel verses of this one are:
1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
Col 1:29 To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily.
Paul in Philippinans 2:12 was talking about santification, not justification. In the work of sanctification Christians are to cooperate with the Indwelling Holy Spirit adding to their saving faith Christlike virtues.
Notice in the verse below Peter mentions faith first for that's what they had first: saving faith. Through faith in Christ the Holy Spirit indwelt them. And so they must add to their saving faith Christlike virtues. Doing these things walking in the Spirit or in cooperation with the Holy Spirit.
2Pe 1:5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge,
2Pe 1:6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness,
2Pe 1:7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.
Of course you must do the above verse in the power of the Holy Spirit.
The Christian has been justified, is now being sanctified and will be glorified.
Justification is God's DECLARATION that the sinner who trust in Christ alone is perfectly righteous on account of the work of God the Son.
Sanctification is God MAKING the already justified sinner righteous through God the Holy Spirit because of the work of God the Son. Here in this aspect, our cooperation is needed.
Glorification is sanctification completed. It is when the DECLARATION [justifi cation] has reached its realization through TRANSFORMATION [sanctification].
God DECLARED him perfectly righteous, He will MAKE him perfectly righteous....you just wait and see.
He has freed him from Egypt, He will bring him to the promise land. In between Egypt and the promise land, there were battles that need to be won. They must fight or should i say work out...to get to the promise land.
Victory is guarrantteed because God had already DECLARED victory in advance. And who can resist the all powerful Word of God?
Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. -
Originally posted by Ironside:
James 2:21-24 (NIV): "Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, 'Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,' and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone."
Paul knew that he was saved:
Tit 3:4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
Tit 3:5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy [b]He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
He knew that he was saved and wrote about it.
Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
This is the second aspect of salvation, namely sanctification. Notice that the verse does NOT say: "Work FOR your salvation......."
It says: "Work Out your own salvation........." The words "work out" is one word in Greek. And it has the idea of manifesting or making evident.
In other words Paul was exhorting them to make manifest their salvation in thier lives through holy living [just continue reading and you will see this]. A baby does not work out to get muscles for at birth he already has that. Inorder to develop that muscle that is already there since birth, he must work out. Doing that, the muscle that was already there since birth would be made evident and manifest when it begins to have definition and contour.
These Philippians were already saved, in fact God is IN them already working in them to wil and to do of His good pleasure:
Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure
Parallel verses of this one are:
1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
Col 1:29 To this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily.
Paul in Philippinans 2:12 was talking about santification, not justification. In the work of sanctification Christians are to cooperate with the Indwelling Holy Spirit adding to their saving faith Christlike virtues.
Notice in the verse below Peter mentions faith first for that's what they had first: saving faith. Through faith in Christ the Holy Spirit indwelt them. And so they must add to their saving faith Christlike virtues. Doing these things walking in the Spirit or in cooperation with the Holy Spirit.
2Pe 1:5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge,
2Pe 1:6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness,
2Pe 1:7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.
Of course you must do the above verse in the power of the Holy Spirit.
The Christian has been justified, is now being sanctified and will be glorified.
Justification is God's DECLARATION that the sinner who trust in Christ alone is perfectly righteous on account of the work of God the Son.
Sanctification is God MAKING the already justified sinner righteous through God the Holy Spirit because of the work of God the Son. Here in this aspect, our cooperation is needed.
Glorification is sanctification completed. It is when the DECLARATION [justifi cation] has reached its realization through TRANSFORMATION [sanctification].
God DECLARED him perfectly righteous, He will MAKE him perfectly righteous....you just wait and see.
He has freed him from Egypt, He will bring him to the promise land. In between Egypt and the promise land, there were battles that need to be won. They must fight or should i say work out...to get to the promise land.
Victory is possible because God had already DECLARED victory in advance. And who can resist the all powerful Word of God?
[/b]
The problem with your position is that a few bible verses could be thrown and ur very extreme stance will fall apart. I personally do not hold to the doctrine of salvation by the intellectual belief of Christ. And that we do not know whether we are saved till the Last Judgement. Men do not play God and JUDGE. I feel the root of our difference here is mainly due to SEMANTICS.
I believe this issue has been resolved by a Joint Declaration by the Catholic Church and the Lutherans.The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification [1] is a document created by and agreed to by clerical representatives of the Roman Catholic Church and the Lutheran World Federation as a result of extensive ecumenical dialogue, apparently resolving the conflict over the nature of justification which was at the root of the Protestant Reformation
Out of curiosity to Mr Extreme, is Judas saved? -
NO one gets saved by having a belief in the Savior. Faith does not mean belief. It goes deeper than that. Faith means to trust, to rely.
about James 2:24.
There are six aspects of justification:
1) Justified by Grace
Ro 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
2) Justified by Faith
Ro 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
3) Justified by power [as exerted in the resurrection of Christ
Ro 4:25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification
4) Justified by God
Ro 8:33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
5) Justified by ChristÂ’s blood
Ro 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
6) Justified by works
Jas 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Question: There are six aspects of justification, how do we put these together in a cohesive whole?
This: We are declared perfectly righteous by God by grace through receiving it by faith alone based on the blood of the Savior shed on the cross, through the power of God as exerted in the resurrection of Christ manifested to men by works.
Two Justifications : Before God and before men.
Study James in context and you will see that James is talking about the latter. James has this idea:
Jas 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works [in the eyes of men], and not by [profession of] faith only.
NOTE verse 18 and know that the word "SAY" there is emphatic in the original. that should help you see clearly what James is saying in these verses
About Judas:
here's what i can say about Judas
Mr 14:21 "The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had never been born." -
PopeOriginally posted by Pope Nicholas:James 2:21-24 (NIV): "Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, 'Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,' and he was called God's friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone."
The problem with your position is that a few bible verses could be thrown and ur very extreme stance will fall apart. I personally do not hold to the doctrine of salvation by the intellectual belief of Christ. And that we do not know whether we are saved till the Last Judgement. Men do not play God and JUDGE. I feel the root of our difference here is mainly due to SEMANTICS.
I believe this issue has been resolved by a Joint Declaration by the Catholic Church and the Lutherans.
go read James, then refer back to the Abraham account
Abraham was declared righteous even before Isaac was born, actual its almost 20yrs before Abraham was asked to offere his son Isaac on the altar.
if its this act of willing to act on God's command to offer Isaac that Abraham was declared righteous, why was the declaration done almost 20yrs ahead of time?
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It is very clear that our difference is semantics.Originally posted by Ironside:NO one gets saved by having a belief in the Savior. Faith does not mean belief. It goes deeper than that. Faith means to trust, to rely.
about James 2:24.
There are six aspects of justification:
1) Justified by Grace
Ro 3:24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
2) Justified by Faith
Ro 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
3) Justified by power
Ro 4:25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification
4) Justified by God
Ro 8:33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
5) Justified by ChristÂ’s blood
Ro 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
6) Justified by works
Jas 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Question: There are six aspects of justification, how do we put these together in a cohesive whole?
This: We are declared perfectly righteous by God by grace through receiving it by faith alone based on the blood of the Savior shed on the cross, through the power of God as exerted in the resurrection of Christ manifested to men by works.
Catholics ultimately believe that we are saved, not by faith or works, but by Jesus Christ and Him alone. Jesus Christ's death and Resurrection is the sole source of our justification (bieng in a right relationship with God) and salvation (heaven). But as a result of Christ's death and resurrection, we are now able to receive God's grace. Grace is God's own divine life which He placedinto our souls. This grace initially causes us to seek God and to believe in Him (the "faith" part).
This is where u will stop. The Catholic position goes on.
God desires us to respond to His grace by putting our faith into action (the "works" part). This is why Jesus always taught about our salvation in the idea of what we actually did during our lives, and not how much faith we had ("whatever u did to the least of my brothers, u did to Me."). When Jesus teaches about His second coming where He will separate the sheep from the goats, He bases salvation and damnation upon what we actually did ("works"), whether righteous or evil.
I personally feel it does not contradict the Lutheran position as it is the same doctrine but explained in a different manner. However this Catholic belief contradicts the novel Protestant notion of "once saved, always saved" or what I prefer to term as OSAS. -
So contradiction in Scripture?Originally posted by vince69:Pope
go read James, then refer back to the Abraham account
Abraham was declared righteous even before Isaac was born, actual its almost 20yrs before Abraham was asked to offere his son Isaac on the altar.
if its this act of willing to act on God's command to offer Isaac that Abraham was declared righteous, why was the declaration done almost 20yrs ahead of time? -
Go read how the Apostle Paul understand and explain this...Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:So contradiction in Scripture?
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But wasnt James written after Paul???Originally posted by vince69:Go read how the Apostle Paul understand and explain this... -
Life got a comic strip about this topic today
under Bizarro -
Not reallyOriginally posted by Pope Nicholas:But wasnt James written after Paul???
there are some indication that Paul wrote Roman (approx 57-58AD) could be after James wrote his letter (45-62 AD)
which ever way, both are writting on the same incident regarding the Abraham. -
But the Methodist, Orthodox, Lutherans and Catholics has resolved this issue already.Originally posted by vince69:Not really
there are some indication that Paul wrote Roman (approx 57-58AD) could be after James wrote his letter (45-62 AD)
which ever way, both are writting on the same incident regarding the Abraham.
We hold teh same thinking. Just the manner we explain is different....semantics. This excldes the novel idea of OSAS or declaring u have been saved....We are not Guaranteed Salvation; We Hope For Salvation -
Can I ask you did Christ die for all your sins and I mean ALL? If He died for all our sins, then how can we still think that some sin will condemn us to hell when we have asked for forgiveness?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Is it right to go around saying you are saved or they were saved etc etc???
How do we know that we are saved (or in the process of being saved)?