Between Peter & Paul
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where you get the idea Elikiam's successors will get the same powers too?
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He inherited an OFFICE
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Lastly you concede that Elikiam possed primacy so logically wouldnt Peter as well since he was granted similiar powers.
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So were the keys given to Elikiam or the bearer of the office?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:He inherited an OFFICE
It can't be the latter beause the office was already there before Elikiam. -
Isaisah 22:20-22 -
Who owns the robe and the sash? I suppose it was God speaking. To whom was God speaking to?
On that day I will summon my servant Eliakim, son of Hilkiah; I will clothe him with your robe, and gird him with your sash, and give over to him your authority. He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder; when he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open.
Perhaps the case of Eliakim is a one-off thing. Just like Joseph. He highly favoured doesn't mean his successor also highly favoured. -
It is the level of primacy we are talking about.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Lastly you concede that Elikiam possed primacy so logically wouldnt Peter as well since he was granted similiar powers.
No one doubts Peter as the chief disciple. No one doubts he is important.
But to what extent? Does he lord over the other apostles? -
The Throne, the Sash, the powers, the KEYS were all passed to the next bearer of the office, Elikiam.Originally posted by Icemoon:Who owns the robe and the sash? I suppose it was God speaking. To whom was God speaking to?
Perhaps the case of Eliakim is a one-off thing. Just like Joseph. He highly favoured doesn't mean his successor also highly favoured. -
I mean who was the original owner lah.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:The Throne, the Sash, the powers, the KEYS were all passed to the next bearer of the office, Elikiam. -
Not to sure. Buts the power of the Prime Minister Office. When Christ created that office, Peter was given an office simliar to that. An office has successors.Originally posted by Icemoon:I mean who was the original owner lah. -
Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Not to sure. Buts the power of the Prime Minister Office. When Christ created that office, Peter was given an office simliar to that. An office has successors.
What don't you make sure first? -
Once again, you have no evidence the successors inherited Elikiam's powers.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:An office has successors. -
You talking about this Eliakim, son of Josiah, who was made king over Judah?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:He replaced Shebna and became Prime Minister of the davidic Kingdom and was granted alot of powers.
or
2 Chronicles 36 : 1-8
1 And the people of the land took Jehoahaz son of Josiah and made him king in Jerusalem in place of his father.
2 Jehoahaz was twenty-three years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. 3 The king of Egypt dethroned him in Jerusalem and imposed on Judah a levy of a hundred talents of silver and a talent [c] of gold. 4 The king of Egypt made Eliakim, a brother of Jehoahaz, king over Judah and Jerusalem and changed Eliakim's name to Jehoiakim. But Neco took Eliakim's brother Jehoahaz and carried him off to Egypt.
5 Jehoiakim was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem eleven years. He did evil in the eyes of the LORD his God. 6 Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon attacked him and bound him with bronze shackles to take him to Babylon. 7 Nebuchadnezzar also took to Babylon articles from the temple of the LORD and put them in his temple there.
8 The other events of Jehoiakim's reign, the detestable things he did and all that was found against him, are written in the book of the kings of Israel and Judah. And Jehoiachin his son succeeded him as king.
This Eliakim son of Hilkiah2 Kings 18:37
Isaiah 22 is talking about Eliakim son of Hilkiah, his job is the palace administrator, Shebna on the other hand is the secretary.
Then Eliakim son of Hilkiah the palace administrator, Shebna the secretary and Joah son of Asaph the recorder went to Hezekiah, with their clothes torn, and told him what the field commander had said. -
The one in Isaish 22.
Icemoon,
My arguments is that Elikiam INHERITED an office and its powers from SHEBNA. There is SUCESSION in the office. Naturally if Elikiam succeeds Shebna, someone will succeed him as well. -
Eliakim son of Hilkiah, did not inherit the office, if you read Isaiah 22 properly, the office was taken away (by force) and given to him.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:The one in Isaish 22.
Icemoon,
My arguments is that Elikiam INHERITED an office and its powers from SHEBNA. There is SUCESSION in the office. Naturally if Elikiam succeeds Shebna, someone will succeed him as well.
in short, its not a sucession, its a replacement. -
Now you are making it even murkier.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:The one in Isaish 22.
Icemoon,
My arguments is that Elikiam INHERITED an office and its powers from SHEBNA. There is SUCESSION in the office. Naturally if Elikiam succeeds Shebna, someone will succeed him as well.
Elikiam inherited an office .. yes.
and its powerf from Shebna .. what powers??
Succession in office .. ok.
But what does this prove?
Just as Shebna has no keys and Elikiam has keys .. issit conceivable that the successor of Elikiam lost the keys? -
next he will say God gave him the office.Originally posted by vince69:Eliakim son of Hilkiah, did not inherit the office, if you read Isaiah 22 properly, the office was taken away (by force) and given to him. -
This is not going anywhere...Originally posted by Icemoon:next he will say God gave him the office.
Pope,
honestly, infering from was Isaiah 22 regarding Peter's primacy is not a good idea, though the words may seems similar, the circumstances surrounding both are very different.
However, You may want to look back to those places where this topic was discussed recently and you can find 4-6 verses in the NT that gives a much stronger inferance on this subject.
cheers
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Did Peter inherited a similiar office as Elikiam did?Originally posted by vince69:This is not going anywhere...
Pope,
honestly, infering from was Isaiah 22 regarding Peter's primacy is not a good idea, though the words may seems similar, the circumstances surrounding both are very different
cheers 
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first... I am still trying to find the verse that says what office Elikiam inherited, if its from Shebna, its not a prime minister office, its a office of secretaryOriginally posted by Pope Nicholas:Did Peter inherited a similiar office as Elikiam did?
ok, found
2 Kings 18:37
Then Eliakim son of Hilkiah the palace administrator, Shebna the secretary and Joah son of Asaph the recorder went to Hezekiah, with their clothes torn, and told him what the field commander had said.
Isaiah 22:15
This is what the Lord, the LORD Almighty, says: "Go, say to this steward, to Shebna, who is in charge of the palace:
but in
Isaiah 36:22
Then Eliakim son of Hilkiah the palace administrator, Shebna the secretary, and Joah son of Asaph the recorder went to Hezekiah, with their clothes torn, and told him what the field commander had said.
Shebna still around leh? just he now become Secretary and Eliakim is the palace administrator (ie. steward in charge of the palace).
btw King Hezekiah still around and on the throne. -
personally, I don't think so.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Did Peter inherited a similiar office as Elikiam did? -
Yupz even though there is a King, God appointed Elikiam to be the steward of the Kingdom. As Christ is our King, he still appointed Peter to be his steward.Originally posted by vince69:ok, found
Isaiah 22:15
This is what the Lord, the LORD Almighty, says: "Go, say to this steward, to Shebna, who is in charge of the palace:
but in
Isaiah 36:22
Then Eliakim son of Hilkiah the palace administrator, Shebna the secretary, and Joah son of Asaph the recorder went to Hezekiah, with their clothes torn, and told him what the field commander had said.
Shebna still around leh? just he now become Secretary and Eliakim is the palace administrator (ie. steward in charge of the palace).
btw King Hezekiah still around and on the throne. -
har?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Yupz even though there is a King, God appointed Elikiam to be the steward of the Kingdom. As Christ is our King, he still appointed Peter to be his steward.
Of course the king has to appoint officials right?
Christ might be your King, but he is no ordinary King. He gave believers the Holy Spirit. Maybe He just works differently lah. -
He did give the Spirit, but he also gave us a Steward to 'feed his sheeps' and strengthen his brethen Apostles'.Originally posted by Icemoon:har?
Of course the king has to appoint officials right?
Christ might be your King, but he is no ordinary King. He gave believers the Holy Spirit. Maybe He just works differently lah.
Christ is the new Davidic King and as such Peter is the new Davidic Steward. -
hmm... Shebna still around, but become secretary instead ... is this a demotion to Shebna?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Yupz even though there is a King, God appointed Elikiam to be the steward of the Kingdom. As Christ is our King, he still appointed Peter to be his steward.
so in Peter's case, wonder who got demoted? and Peter replaced who?
This is if there if it is still insisted that Peter was empowered the same way Elikiam was.
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correction, Christ is both King and High Priest.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:He did give the Spirit, but he also gave us a Steward to 'feed his sheeps' and strengthen his brethen Apostles'.
Christ is the new Davidic King and as such Peter is the new Davidic Steward.