Between Johann Eck and Luther Martin
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Please continue here for those interested.
[edit] Note: Wrongly titled. Should be "Johann Eck and Martin Luther" -
Actually, not all German supported Luther, only a handful of the them supported him. most of the German rulers/princes still supported the Pope.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Johann eck is a common man so even his loss will not affect the Papacy. He was not a Papal Legate stamped with Papal authority like Cardinal Cajetan.
The judges were German Theologicans and both Luther and Ech were german theoligcans so there shouldnt be any bias.
My argument is, if the Germans were so fearful of upsetting the Pope, why were they massed support for Luther. There has also been instances where Papal Legates were defeated by the Reformers.
Johann Eck on the otherhand diid not. He instead went on to defeat other Reformers.
Icemoon, was Cardinal Cajenta, the leading Bible Scholar in that era???
thats why, during that time, the ruling (to avoid full scale civil war) is that to each his prince, meaning, if the prince or ruler decided to be a protestant, everyone in his land will be protestants; on the other hand, if the prince or ruler decided on staying catholic, then everyone in his land will be catholic. -
errr. boss, its Martin Luther (you got his name wrong)Originally posted by sillyme:Please continue here for those interested.
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Sillyme got the name of Protestant's founding father wrong.Originally posted by vince69:errr. boss, its Martin Luther (you got his name wrong) -
I'm outta here. -
Originally posted by M©+square:
I'm outta here. stay leh, ... you not around. not as fun anymore leh ...
anyway ... think I will do something else first -
Can anyone please help me find what points exactly were discussed in teh debate. I doubt there is an excerpt but perhaps a list of points and rebuttals.
I shall look upon another secular source (i reject Newadvent due to catholic biased)
Encyclopedia of World Biography© on Johann Maier von Eck
http://www.bookrags.com/Johann_Eck
The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001-05.
Karlstadt, a supporter of Luther's, obtained a copy of Eck's work and responded publicly with a collection of 400 theses. In 1518 Eck arranged for a debate with Luther and Karlstadt at Leipzig in the following year. At the debate Eck quickly disposed of Karlstadt and then took on Luther himself, skillfully drawing the reformer into extremely heretical positions and achieving a personal triumph
When academic recognition was slow in coming, Eck took his case to Rome and elicited a papal bull from Leo X excommunicating Luther and condemning his position. Eck then brought the bull back to Germany and urged Emperor Charles V to apply force to Luther. Following Luther's condemnation, Eck remained the defender of Catholicism against him. Since Luther, however, refused to respond to his challenges, Eck turned his attention to other reformers and in a number of works condemned various theological errors. His career as the champion of orthodoxy culminated in his Confutation of the Protestant Augsburg Confession in 1530.
Luther's Ninety-five Theses (1517) changed Eck's life. At his bishop's request Eck responded to the theses, and ensuing exchanges led to the Leipzig Disputation (1519) between Eck and the Wittenbergers Luther and Karlstadt. Shortly thereafter Eck went to Rome and helped secure papal condemnation of Wittenberg theology. He was commissioned (1520) to publicize in Germany the papal bull Exsurge Domine, which condemned forty-one propositions attributed to Luther, and which Luther publicly burned.
The rest of Eck's life was devoted largely to combating Protestants in Germany and Switzerland. Although he had no confidence that disputation would convince his Protestant opponents, he engaged in debate when he thought public policy might be influenced—notably in Baden in 1524. He was the most important Catholic participant in discussions with Protestants at Augsburg (1530) and Ratisbon (1541). His anti-Protestant publications included the following: defenses of papal authority (De primatu Petri, 1520), the doctrine of purgatory (De purgatorio, 1523), the sacrament of penance (De satisfactione and De initio poenitentiae, both 1523), and the sacrifice of the Mass (De sacrificio missae, 1526); the Enchiridion (1525), a manual intended to refute common Protestant errors; cycles of sermons (German and Latin, 1530); and a German translation of the Bible (1537). Two memoirs (Schutz red, 1540, and Replica, 1543) are polemical tracts that also provide biographical details.
Eck's writings were the most widely distributed anti-Protestant theological works of his generation. He played a major role in convincing Roman Catholic authorities that Luther's teachings were novelties dangerous to the security of the faith. He helped shape the strategy widely used against the Protestants: to take positions representing a medieval consensus and, in defending them, to anticipate possible Protestant objections, avoid scholastic demonstration, and emphasize scriptural argumentsHe was renowned in Germany for his dialectic skill in public disputation and for his deep knowledge of church history and canon law. He had been suspected of unsound theology because of some of his humanistic ideas, but he had no hesitation in condemning (151
Christian Cyclopedia ( Lutheran Source)
the new theses of Martin Luther, with whom he held a public discussion at Leipzig in 1519. Eager for the condemnation of the heresy he saw in Lutheranism, he went to Rome and returned with the papal bull condemning Luther (1520). From that time he was a leader in the struggle against the reforming party in Germany. He was one of the leading theologians at the Diet of Augsburg (1530). He also attacked the Swiss reforms of Zwingli. Eck is known as the first theologian who forced Luther into a position of definite, open opposition to the teachings and practice of the Roman Catholic Church
http://www.lcms.org/ca/www/cyclopedia/02/display.asp?t1=l&word=LEIPZIGDEBATEThe most important result of the disputation was the incentive which it gave Luther to cut loose from the whole system of pretentious infallibility. He had, indeed, previously reached the conclusion, -- as appears from his reply to Prierias,--that it was possible for a council to err. But as yet he had not ventured to take exception to any specific decision of a general council. This was first brought about at the Leipzig disputation, under pressure of Eck's assertion, that, in denying the divine right of the Pope, Luther was making himself a patron of the Hussite heresy, and was contending for a proposition which the council of Constance had expressly condemned. At first Luther took umbrage at being associated with Huss; his mind not yet being fully disabused of the prejudice against the Bohemian martyr, which a century of industrious vilification had ingrained into the minds of the Germans generally. But on reflection he declared, of his own accord, that several of the sentences of Huss, condemned by the council of Constance, were most Christian and evangelical. This naturally produced no small stir among the auditors. Eck, in a letter to Hochstraten, says that many who had been favorable to Luther were terrified by this daring error, and ceased to give him countenance. To have brought his opponent to this confession, was, no doubt, a formal victory for Eck, for it enabled him to brand him in the eyes of Roman Catholics generally as a manifest heretic. But what was a formal victory for Eck was a real advantage to Luther and his cause. By assisting him to a clearer apprehension of truth, it only increased the momentum with which he was preparing to assail the ramparts of papal and hierarchical sovereignty. Luther gives an account of the disputation in Epist. cxlvii., cxlix., cli.
All agree Johann Eck was victorious in the debate. The question though is whether the effects of Johann Eck victory was in any sense detrimental to Luther position. The Lutherans site, will admitting to Luther's defeat, proceed to show how it strengthened Luther resolve and cleared his mind etc etc. -
you need to read them yourself and not just quote,Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Can anyone please help me find what points exactly were discussed in teh debate. I doubt there is an excerpt but perhaps a list of points and rebuttals.
I shall look upon another secular source (i reject Newadvent due to catholic biased)
Encyclopedia of World Biography© on Johann Maier von Eck
http://www.bookrags.com/Johann_Eck
All agree Johann Eck was victorious in the debate. The question though is whether the effects of Johann Eck victory was in any sense detrimental to Luther position. The Lutherans site, will admitting to Luther's defeat, proceed to show how it strengthened Luther resolve and cleared his mind etc etc.
in sequence
Quote 1) summarize into Eck took his case to Rome and elicited a papal bull from Leo X excommunicating Luther and condemning his position.
- meaning Pope Leo X supported him, not he win over Luther.
Quote 2) He also attacked the Swiss reforms of Zwingli. Eck is known as the first theologian who forced Luther into a position of definite, open opposition to the teachings and practice of the Roman Catholic Church
- meaning he managed to get Luther to a position of definite and open opposition, which means he managed to get Luther even more determined than ever and more firmed regarding his (Luther) position.
Quote 3) To have brought his opponent to this confession, was, no doubt, a formal victory for Eck, for it enabled him to brand him in the eyes of Roman Catholics generally as a manifest heretic. But what was a formal victory for Eck was a real advantage to Luther and his cause. By assisting him to a clearer apprehension of truth, it only increased the momentum with which he was preparing to assail the ramparts of papal and hierarchical sovereignty.
- meaning, again, his (Eck) so call victory actually added fuel and determination to the reformer's (luther) conviction and give Luther a clearer apprehension of truth, it only increased the momentum with which he was preparing to assail the ramparts of papal and hierarchical sovereignty.
all Eck succeed in doing is to enabled him to brand him in the eyes of Roman Catholics generally as a manifest heretic
- this shows his agenda is not to win Luther in the first place, but just want the Pope to brand Luther as a manifest heretic. -
Before continuing, pls note that we are having a discussion on Church History here, not church doctrine nor tradition.
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That was Johann Eck purpose. To destroy Luther support by making him admit that he was a heretic. Prior to that debate, Martin Luther was thought to be against papal pomp and was purely for reform. Johann Eck thought otherwise. He forced Luther to concede that he was against papal authority and went as far as to make him admit that the Council of Constance was in error. He succeeded in shifting the debate to the very authority of the Pope. After that debate, Martin Luther became known throughtout Christendome as an self-confessed heretic.Originally posted by vince69:you need to read them yourself and not just quote,
in sequence
Quote 1) summarize into Eck took his case to Rome and elicited a papal bull from Leo X excommunicating Luther and condemning his position.
- meaning Pope Leo X supported him, not he win over Luther.
Quote 2) He also attacked the Swiss reforms of Zwingli. Eck is known as the first theologian who forced Luther into a position of definite, open opposition to the teachings and practice of the Roman Catholic Church
- meaning he managed to get Luther to a position of definite and open opposition, which means he managed to get Luther even more determined than ever and more firmed regarding his (Luther) position.
Quote 3) To have brought his opponent to this confession, was, no doubt, a formal victory for Eck, for it enabled him to brand him in the eyes of Roman Catholics generally as a manifest heretic. But what was a formal victory for Eck was a real advantage to Luther and his cause. By assisting him to a clearer apprehension of truth, it only increased the momentum with which he was preparing to assail the ramparts of papal and hierarchical sovereignty.
- meaning, again, his (Eck) so call victory actually added fuel and determination to the reformer's (luther) conviction and give Luther a clearer apprehension of truth, it only increased the momentum with which he was preparing to assail the ramparts of papal and hierarchical sovereignty.
all Eck succeed in doing is to enabled him to brand him in the eyes of Roman Catholics generally as a manifest heretic
- this shows his agenda is not to win Luther in the first place, but just want the Pope to brand Luther as a manifest heretic.
This is contrary to the Letter to pope Leo X he wrote 4months earlier.
Most Holy Father, before God and all his creation, I testify that I have never wanted, nor do I today want, to touch in any way the authority of the Roman Church and of Your Holiness or demolish it by craftiness. On the contrary, I confess the authority of this church to be supreme over all, and that nothing, be it in heaven or on earth, is to be preferred to it, save the one Jesus Christ who is Lord of all--nor should Your Holiness believe the schemers who claim otherwise, plotting evil against this Martin.
(Draft of Letter to Leo X of January 1519 in LW:48, p.102). -
Quote 1
Vince69:
"summarize into Eck took his case to Rome and elicited a papal bull from Leo X excommunicating Luther and condemning his position. "
- meaning Pope Leo X supported him, not he win over Luther.
My Reply:
The line in the previous paragraph says, "At the debate Eck quickly disposed of Karlstadt and then took on Luther himself, skillfully drawing the reformer into extremely heretical positions and achieving a personal triumph"
The site hence proclaims victory to Johann Eck (theological victory over Karlstandt and success in drawing Luther to heretical position). This confirms my position that Johann Eck was successful
Quote 2
Vince69:
"He also attacked the Swiss reforms of Zwingli. Eck is known as the first theologian who forced Luther into a position of definite, open opposition to the teachings and practice of the Roman Catholic Church"
- meaning he managed to get Luther to a position of definite and open opposition, which means he managed to get Luther even more determined than ever and more firmed regarding his (Luther) position
My reply:
It means he was successful in making Luther declare he was against the Pope and hence a heretic. The quote u brought forth to aid you in your arguments, proves my point. He was the first theologican to successfully make Luther declare himself against the Pope and Church.
Quote 3
Vince69:
"To have brought his opponent to this confession, was, no doubt, a formal victory for Eck, for it enabled him to brand him in the eyes of Roman Catholics generally as a manifest heretic. But what was a formal victory for Eck was a real advantage to Luther and his cause. By assisting him to a clearer apprehension of truth, it only increased the momentum with which he was preparing to assail the ramparts of papal and hierarchical sovereignty.
- meaning, again, his (Eck) so call victory actually added fuel and determination to the reformer's (luther) conviction and give Luther a clearer apprehension of truth, it only increased the momentum with which he was preparing to assail the ramparts of papal and hierarchical sovereignty."
"all Eck succeed in doing is to enabled him to brand him in the eyes of Roman Catholics generally as a manifest heretic"
- this shows his agenda is not to win Luther in the first place, but just want the Pope to brand Luther as a manifest heretic.
My Reply:
Johann Eck believed it was impossible to win over the Reformers but hoped to limit thier beliefs to the Masses. By destroying karlstandt theoligically and forcing Luther to admit he was a heretic, he had succeeded.
Read the line before it: This naturally produced no small stir among the auditors. Eck, in a letter to Hochstraten, says that many who had been favorable to Luther were terrified by this daring error, and ceased to give him countenance.
This shows he was successful in limiting Luther's support. Furthermore, it will be easier to deal with a heretic as to compare with a German Monk who was pro-reform. We must also note that he defeated Karlstandt theologies.
However this Lutheran site, also points out that by potraying Luther as a heretic, it strengthened Luther's position as it gave him clarity. -
read you quote again, Luther did not said he is a heretic, he was declared a heretic (very different).Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:That was Johann Eck purpose. To destroy Luther support by making him admit that he was a heretic. Prior to that debate, Martin Luther was thought to be against papal pomp and was purely for reform. Johann Eck thought otherwise. He forced Luther to concede that he was against papal authority and went as far as to make him admit that the Council of Constance was in error. He succeeded in shifting the debate to the very authority of the Pope. After that debate, Martin Luther became known throughtout Christendome as an self-confessed heretic.
This is contrary to the Letter to pope Leo X he wrote 4months earlier.
Most Holy Father, before God and all his creation, I testify that I have never wanted, nor do I today want, to touch in any way the authority of the Roman Church and of Your Holiness or demolish it by craftiness. On the contrary, I confess the authority of this church to be supreme over all, and that nothing, be it in heaven or on earth, is to be preferred to it, save the one Jesus Christ who is Lord of all--nor should Your Holiness believe the schemers who claim otherwise, plotting evil against this Martin.
(Draft of Letter to Leo X of January 1519 in LW:48, p.102).
before the debate, Luther only want to reform the church, thinking there is still hope for the catholic church. its only after the debate, the Luther is convinced that the church is not and will not accept and reforming.
So much for this so call victory, that ended up strengthing the position and resolve of the other party.
come to think of it, if without this event, Luther may not have the conviction enough to go through the reformation and split from the church (since this is not his intention before the debate), perhaps we won't even have the protestant churches at all.
hmm... maybe we should thank Eck for giving the protestant movement the final push, giving birth to the protestant churches... -
in other words .. Luther was forced up Liangshan.
All thanks to Eck. -
Linagshan?Originally posted by Icemoon:in other words .. Luther was forced up Liangshan.
All thanks to Eck. -
ah sorry ah...
typo typo
i close this thread ok? -
i think just let things be ok?
less confusion
now you know why i call meself sillyme -
I have already addressed your points in my previous post.Originally posted by vince69:read you quote again, Luther did not said he is a heretic, he was declared a heretic (very different).
before the debate, Luther only want to reform the church, thinking there is still hope for the catholic church. its only after the debate, the Luther is convinced that the church is not and will not accept and reforming.
So much for this so call victory, that ended up strengthing the position and resolve of the other party.
come to think of it, if without this event, Luther may not have the conviction enough to go through the reformation and split from the church (since this is not his intention before the debate), perhaps we won't even have the protestant churches at all.
hmm... maybe we should thank Eck for giving the protestant movement the final push, giving birth to the protestant churches...
Hmm the last bit, yes thats what the Lutheran site tries to argue. However the secular sites argue that Eck came off victorious by exposing Luther's heresy to the world.
Some sites even argue thats the reason why Luther dared not debate against Johann Eck again which caused Eck's attention to turn to Zwingli and his followers which ended with a successful refutation of the Augsburg Confession. -
Never interested in Reformation History leh.Originally posted by vince69: stay leh, ... you not around. not as fun anymore leh ...
anyway ... think I will do something else first
And Catholic history leh. -
hah.. no lah, this is for fun one ...Originally posted by M©+square:Never interested in Reformation History leh.
And Catholic history leh. -
Dont like to play with pope.Originally posted by vince69:hah.. no lah, this is for fun one ...
Play with ben better. -
has ben recovered?
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no news leh... I missed Ben... heck I missed SIS also...Originally posted by Icemoon:has ben recovered?