Oct 12,2012 - The End Time????
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Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Your position is ironic. How can you count the NT as Scripture when there is no list of inspired books found in Scripture. The only reason why you count the NT as inspired is because the Catholic Church told you so. Whenever u read the Bible, you give explicit trust that the Catholic Church selected those books correctly.
BUt God created a CHurch? Didnt he say the Church (and not Bible) is the pillar and bulwark of truth in 1 Tim 3:15? You are not being very scripturial here...
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How can we trust the Catholic Church if the foremost reason given for 4 gospels is because there are 4 corners?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Your position is ironic. How can you count the NT as Scripture when there is no list of inspired books found in Scripture. The only reason why you count the NT as inspired is because the Catholic Church told you so. Whenever u read the Bible, you give explicit trust that the Catholic Church selected those books correctly.
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Lets see what Irenaus said,Originally posted by Icemoon:How can we trust the Catholic Church if the foremost reason given for 4 gospels is because there are 4 corners?The Gospels could not possibly be either more or less in number than they are. Since there are four zones of the world in which we live, and four principal winds, while the Church is spread over all the earth, and the pillar and foundation of the Church is the gospel, and the Spirit of life, it fittingly has four pillars, everywhere breathing out incorruption and revivifying men. From this it is clear that the Word, the artificer of all things, being manifested to men gave us the gospel, fourfold in form but held together by one Spirit. As David said, when asking for his coming, 'O sitter upon the cherubim, show yourself '. For the cherubim have four faces, and their faces are images of the activity of the Son of God. For the first living creature, it says, was like a lion, signifying his active and princely and royal character; the second was like an ox, showing his sacrificial and priestly order; the third had the face of a man, indicating very clearly his coming in human guise; and the fourth was like a flying eagle, making plain the giving of the Spirit who broods over the Church. Now the Gospels, in which Christ is enthroned, are like these. (3.11.
I think Irenaus why justifying why there are only 4 Gospel. Furthermore, it was Apostolic Tradition that guided him t making that choice (His teacher was Polycarp whose teacher was the Apostle John). The Canon of the Bible truly began in the Council of Carthage after canons was made by Pope Damasus in 382AD in the Synod of Rome.
As is the activity of the Son of God, such is the form of the living creatures; and as is the form of the living creatures, such is also the character of the Gospel. For the living creatures were quadriform, and the gospel and the activity of the Lord is fourfold. Therefore four general covenants were given to mankind: one was that of Noah's deluge, by the [rain] bow; the second was Abraham's, by the sign of circumcision; the third was the giving of the Law by Moses; and the fourth is that of the Gospel, through our Lord Jesus Christ. (3.11. -
Yes .. why only 4? We know there were more than 4 gospels then, but why those 4? In particular why Mark?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:I think Irenaus why justifying why there are only 4 Gospel. Furthermore, it was Apostolic Tradition that guided him t making that choice (His teacher was Polycarp whose teacher was the Apostle John). The Canon of the Bible truly began in the Council of Carthage after canons was made by Pope Damasus in 382AD in the Synod of Rome.
The ans is because there are 4 corners.
Not 3, not 6, but 4 corners.
As if this is not enough, Irenaeus added 4 winds, 4 pillars, 4 cherubims etc.
The question is did Polycarp teach him which are the true gospels and which are not?
The synod was not enforced or did not have much authority until Trent. In between Synod of Rome and Council of Trent, Catholics (the only denomination before Trent) recognized other books beside the ones we have today. No, we are not talking about the apocrypha.
By the way, the apocrypha was present in the early editions of King James. What a joke. -
Those 4 gospels were chosen as it was orthodox and had apostolic roots. Thats why Gospel of Truth (heretic) and Gospel of Judas( heretic) were rejected while Pope Clement letters were not considered heretical (not apostle) but authoritative still.Originally posted by Icemoon:Yes .. why only 4? We know there were more than 4 gospels then, but why those 4? In particular why Mark?
The ans is because there are 4 corners.
Not 3, not 6, but 4 corners.
As if this is not enough, Irenaeus added 4 winds, 4 pillars, 4 cherubims etc.
The question is did Polycarp teach him which are the true gospels and which are not?
The synod was not enforced or did not have much authority until Trent. In between Synod of Rome and Council of Trent, Catholics (the only denomination before Trent) recognized other books beside the ones we have today. No, we are not talking about the apocrypha.
By the way, the apocrypha was present in the early editions of King James. What a joke.
The Catholic list of inspired books did not change from 382AD.The Decree of Pope St. Damasus I, Synod of Rome. 382 A.D....
ST. DAMASUS 1, POPE, THE DECREE OF DAMASUS:
It is likewise decreed: Now, indeed, we must treat of the divine Scriptures: what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she must shun.
The list of the Old Testament begins: Genesis, one book; Exodus, one book: Leviticus, one book; Numbers, one book; Deuteronomy, one book; Jesus Nave, one book; of Judges, one book; Ruth, one book; of Kings, four books; Paralipomenon, two books; One Hundred and Fifty Psalms, one book; of Solomon, three books: Proverbs, one book; Ecclesiastes, one book; Canticle of Canticles, one book; likewise, Wisdom, one book; Ecclesiasticus (Sirach), one book; Likewise, the list of the Prophets: Isaiah, one book; Jeremias, one book; along with Cinoth, that is, his Lamentations; Ezechiel, one book; Daniel, one book; Osee, one book; Amos, one book; Micheas, one book; Joel, one book; Abdias, one book; Jonas, one book; Nahum, one book; Habacuc, one book; Sophonias, one book; Aggeus, one book; Zacharias, one book; Malachias, one book. Likewise, the list of histories: Job, one book; Tobias, one book; Esdras, two books; Esther, one book; Judith, one book; of Maccabees, two books.
Likewise, the list of the Scriptures of the New and Eternal Testament, which the holy and Catholic Church receives: of the Gospels, one book according to Matthew, one book according to Mark, one book according to Luke, one book according to John. The Epistles of the Apostle Paul, fourteen in number: one to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, one to the Ephesians, two to the Thessalonians, one to the Galatians, one to the Philippians, one to the Colossians, two to Timothy, one to Titus one to Philemon, one to the Hebrews. Likewise, one book of the Apocalypse of John. And the Acts of the Apostles, one book. Likewise, the canonical Epistles, seven in number: of the Apostle Peter, two Epistles; of the Apostle James, one Epistle; of the Apostle John, one Epistle; of the other John, a Presbyter, two Epistles; of the Apostle Jude the Zealot, one Epistle. Thus concludes the canon of the New Testament.
Likewise it is decreed: After the announcement of all of these prophetic and evangelic or as well as apostolic writings which we have listed above as Scriptures, on which, by the grace of God, the Catholic Church is founded, we have considered that it ought to be announced that although all the Catholic Churches spread abroad through the world comprise but one bridal chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by the conciliar decisions of other Churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: "You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you shall have bound on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall have loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven." -
Pope Damasus list and all the other Councils are the same, even the Council of Florence, 80yrs before the Reformation.
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I think we have to ask who declares what is heretical and what is not?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Those 4 gospels were chosen as it was orthodox and had apostolic roots. Thats why Gospel of Truth (heretic) and Gospel of Judas( heretic) were rejected while Pope Clement letters were not considered heretical (not apostle) but authoritative still. -
The list didn't have the power until Trent.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Pope Damasus list and all the other Councils are the same, even the Council of Florence, 80yrs before the Reformation.
Christians in the past did not really distinguish between canonical and authoritative (c.f. Acts of Paul and Thecla)
Also, the Pope Damascus list includes the apocrypha or part of it. -
1) Since it (councils and popes) came from the Church, it requires religious assent to itOriginally posted by Icemoon:The list didn't have the power until Trent.
Christians in the past did not really distinguish between canonical and authoritative (c.f. Acts of Paul and Thecla)
Also, the Pope Damascus list includes the apocrypha or part of it.
2) Council of Trent made the canon infallible to prevent the reformers from making any changes ( Luther wanted to remove the 7 DC books and the Epistle of James and Revelation).
3) Doctrines are made infallible only when someone tries to attack it. To disagree with this statement, is to acknowledge that Christ divinity was only accepted in the Council of Nicea in the 4th century and was not authoritaive prior to that.
4) All the Council list agrees with Pope Damasus list or so I think. Will welcome any proof to show otherwise. -
2) The reformers are no longer under the jurisdiction of the Catholic Church liao. You think the decision is binding on Luther? And what happened in the end? Did the Lutheran Church threw away the said books?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:1) Since it (councils and popes) came from the Church, it requires religious assent to it
2) Council of Trent made the canon infallible to prevent the reformers from making any changes ( Luther wanted to remove the 7 DC books and the Epistle of James and Revelation).
3) Doctrines are made infallible only when someone tries to attack it. To disagree with this statement, is to acknowledge that Christ divinity was only accepted in the Council of Nicea in the 4th century and was not authoritaive prior to that.
4) All the Council list agrees with Pope Damasus list or so I think. Will welcome any proof to show otherwise.
3) Christ divinity was *clarified* in the Council of Nicea. Indeed, there were many "Christians" who did not accept Christ's divinity, e.g. the adoptionists.
4) If the Pope Damascus list is authoritative, why is there a need to call the DC books DC books? Why not call them canonical since Pope Damascus said so? -
2) Before they were anathema, they were under its juridiisction. Luther left the Church AFTER the Council of Trent. And while the Lutheran did, the Catholic Church did not, thanks to the infallible doctrine.Originally posted by Icemoon:2) The reformers are no longer under the jurisdiction of the Catholic Church liao. You think the decision is binding on Luther? And what happened in the end? Did the Lutheran Church threw away the said books?
3) Christ divinity was *clarified* in the Council of Nicea. Indeed, there were many "Christians" who did not accept Christ's divinity, e.g. the adoptionists.
4) If the Pope Damascus list is authoritative, why is there a need to call the DC books DC books? Why not call them canonical since Pope Damascus said so?
3) Same here, the Council of Trent clarified the Canon in the face of heresy.
4) U are playing wif language haha.
My argument is:
1) Bible canon came from the Church - hence whenever u read the NT, u give explicit trust in the Catholic church
2) There was no disagreement in the Councils since Pope Damasus decree in the Synod of Rome. -
Am I playing with words?
Well the DC books are indeed called DC books and not C books. How come? -
History has a habit of repeating itself.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:3) Same here, the Council of Trent clarified the Canon in the face of heresy.
Even the NT was compiled because of the Marcionite heresy! -
cant it be sooner?
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That is most true. Truth is founded on heresy hahaOriginally posted by Icemoon:History has a habit of repeating itself.
Even the NT was compiled because of the Marcionite heresy! -
Why should it the Canon be founded sooner?Originally posted by dragg:cant it be sooner?
Christ didnt order any Apostles to write any Scripture. Christ instead founded a Church and thats why it came before the Bible. -
sorry, i mean the end time.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Why should it the Canon be founded sooner?
Christ didnt order any Apostles to write any Scripture. Christ instead founded a Church and thats why it came before the Bible.
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so should we hav a chinese pope????Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Well, techincally any Catholic male can be chosen to be Pope... -
U want a Pope Mao???Originally posted by hiphop2009:so should we hav a chinese pope???? -
hmm .. will the chinese pope purge his cardinals and bishops?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:U want a Pope Mao??? -
Topic swayed from end times to validity of scripture, heresy etc etc. I must say yes! The end is coming soon and this time it is for real. They couldn't say so for all the past centuries bcos Israel wasn't born again as a nation until 1948. But since Israel is now back in her God given land, the clock has just about stopped for the Gentile grace age and it's going to be the last week as prophesied by Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy. 69 weeks were accounted for but the last week was delayed by the age of grace for the Gentile church. This is the mystery spoken of by Paul. Once again God will focus on Israel and the Gentile church will be raptured to start the 70th week. This is the Great Tribulation or Time of Jacob's Trouble.
The clock is about to stop for us the Gentile church and the age of grace is going to pass. Are you ready? Are you a believer in Jesus Christ? If not I urge you to believe before too late. -
U misintepretate Scripture to our demise.Originally posted by Raptured:Topic swayed from end times to validity of scripture, heresy etc etc. I must say yes! The end is coming soon and this time it is for real. They couldn't say so for all the past centuries bcos Israel wasn't born again as a nation until 1948. But since Israel is now back in her God given land, the clock has just about stopped for the Gentile grace age and it's going to be the last week as prophesied by Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy. 69 weeks were accounted for but the last week was delayed by the age of grace for the Gentile church. This is the mystery spoken of by Paul. Once again God will focus on Israel and the Gentile church will be raptured to start the 70th week. This is the Great Tribulation or Time of Jacob's Trouble.
The clock is about to stop for us the Gentile church and the age of grace is going to pass. Are you ready? Are you a believer in Jesus Christ? If not I urge you to believe before too late.
In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures. 2 Peter 3:16
The same chapter where the Rapture is disproven. -
Then where is the last week prophesied by Daniel? It's been nearly over two thousand years since the 69th week.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:U misintepretate Scripture to our demise.
In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures. 2 Peter 3:16
The same chapter where the Rapture is disproven. -
if u realli want to die, den say la, i will kill uOriginally posted by new_b:
stop wif dis bullshit can anot?
ppl say yr 2000 will be the end, and now we're at 2007
what's next? 2066 june 6 izzit or 2666 june 6 ah?
dun believe too much in this stuffs can anot...
humans live to be happy, to live their lifes to the fullest, not to worrying about when they are goin to die, idiot.
i hope you get banned.