What's wrong with going to hell? - discuss
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Rom 11:20-23
Paul teaches that the Jews (the natural branches) were broken off by lack of faith (v.20), but says that the Romans stand fast through faith (v. 21). So the Romans are justified. However, Paul then says that the Romans can also be cut off if they don’t persevere in faith and kindness (v. 22-23). Hence, those justified before God can fall away from the faith and lose their salvation (be “cut off”). Paul also says that those who are cut off can be grafted back in if they do not persist in their unbelief, for God has the power to graft them in again (v.23). These verses are devastating to the “once saved, always saved” position.
That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either. See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. -
please read your quotes againOriginally posted by Pope Nicholas:------------
Rom 11:20-23
That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either. See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again
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Paul teaches that the Jews (the natural branches) were broken off by lack of faith (v.20), but says that the Romans stand fast through faith (v. 21). So the Romans are justified. However, Paul then says that the Romans can also be cut off if they don’t persevere in faith and kindness (v. 22-23). Hence, those justified before God can fall away from the faith and lose their salvation (be “cut off”). Paul also says that those who are cut off can be grafted back in if they do not persist in their unbelief, for God has the power to graft them in again (v.23). These verses are devastating to the “once saved, always saved” position.
1) The Jews were cut off because of their unbelieved (not lack of faith, not lack of good works), But the believers were there because of their faith (faith in what: Christ or works?)
2) continue on, severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, in this context, who are those that fell? is Paul not refering to those that fell because of their unbelief? and kindness to you (believers) ?
3) now, who are those that will be cut off? is Paul talking about faith and believe in Christ? or those that lacks good works?
I put it to you, the Jews (even those that do not believed in Christ) are doing a much better job in doing good works and following the commandments tha the Gentile Christians, yet, its not their lack of good works that they are being cut off.
so its dependant on works, the Jews won't have been cut off, its lack of believe in the finished work of Christ.
Hence, its not lack of works but lack of believe.
Its remains in Christ totally dependant on the grace of God
or
Its remains in unbelief dependant on the work of man.
NOTE: do not dispise the Jews, for if we gentile believers (wild vine) can be grafted in because of our faith in Christ, it would be even much more easier for God to graft them (natural vine) back if they were to turn back and believed.
cheers.
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So the only way to judge a person's faith is through his works. Moreover, sins can renegade a person's faith and hence his salvation. Which strengthens my case that salvation is not absolute as sins can remove it. Whenever u sin, u are cut off from the tree and when u repent, u are grafted back in.Originally posted by vince69:please read your quotes again
1) The Jews were cut off because of their unbelieved (not lack of faith, not lack of good works), But the believers were there because of their faith (faith in what: Christ or works?)
2) continue on, severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, in this context, who are those that fell? is Paul not refering to those that fell because of their unbelief? and kindness to you (believers) ?
3) now, who are those that will be cut off? is Paul talking about faith and believe in Christ? or those that lacks good works?
I put it to you, the Jews (even those that do not believed in Christ) are doing a much better job in doing good works and following the commandments tha the Gentile Christians, yet, its not their lack of good works that they are being cut off.
so its dependant on works, the Jews won't have been cut off, its lack of believe in the finished work of Christ.
Hence, its not lack of works but lack of believe.
Its remains in Christ totally dependant on the grace of God
or
Its remains in unbelief dependant on the work of man.
NOTE: do not dispise the Jews, for if we gentile believers (wild vine) can be grafted in because of our faith in Christ, it would be even much more easier for God to graft them (natural vine) back if they were to turn back and believed.
cheers. -
The Jews are cut off from the trees....we should pity them for thier lack of faith.
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wrong again,Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:So the only way to judge a person's faith is through his works. Moreover, sins can renegade a person's faith and hence his salvation. Which strengthens my case that salvation is not absolute as sins can remove it. Whenever u sin, u are cut off from the tree and when u repent, u are grafted back in.
1) what you are saying here is that man is so powerful that man's works (sin = bad works) can nullify the deeds of Christ, putting man's deeds above Christ's deeds.
2) Christ says, whoever believed will have eternal life, not maybe, not hopefully, and its just believed and not believe and do somemore. are you call Christ a bad teacher? or a liar?
3) indeed, faith is reflected in our works and deeds, but what type of faith do you have? if you depend on your works for your salvation, what type of faith is this?
I put to you that this is the correct way...
in that we work not because we want to gain salvation, but rather,
We do good deeds out of graditude for our salvation is assured in Christ.
We love and do charity not because we want rewards, but because Christ had first loved us and had given Himself to us.
We are able, not because we can, but Christ had enable us.
Its not about us, its all about Christ.
cheers.
** just to add, if its good works = correct faith, then on the outside, the Jews will have correct faith, for in the keeping of the law and commandments, I am pretty sure they are doing a much better job than the Gentile Christians (including those in Rome).
Here is how Paul looks at all these 'good works that reflects faith'Philippians 3 : 3-6 (NIV)
His credential : a Hebrew of Hebrews, a Pharisee ...etc such that for legalistic righteousness, faultless.
3For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh— 4though I myself have reasons for such confidence.
If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.
good enough?
This is what he consider them (vs
'I consider them rubbish' -
pity? I believe that God in His time will bring the Jews backOriginally posted by Pope Nicholas:The Jews are cut off from the trees....we should pity them for thier lack of faith.
--continue the verses you quoted
Romans 11:25-32 (NIV)
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. -
So are u saying that sin will not nullify my salvation? Are u saying salvation occurs at a specific point in your life. I shall confute u using Scripture.Originally posted by vince69:wrong again,
1) what you are saying here is that man is so powerful that man's works (sin = bad works) can nullify the deeds of Christ, putting man's deeds above Christ's deeds.
1 Cor 3:12-25If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, 8 but only as through fire.
If works are unnecessary for salvation as you believe, then why is a man saved (not just rewarded) through fire by a judgment of his works?Mat 24:13
Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. If this is true, then how can you believe in the teaching of "Once saved, always saved?" If salvation occurred at a specific point in time when we accepted Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, there would be no need to endure to the end. We would already be saved.
But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.Rev 2:26
Jesus says he who conquers and keeps my works until the end will be rewarded in heaven. Jesus thus instructs us to keep his works to the very end. This is not necessary if we are "once saved, always saved."
'"To the victor, 21 who keeps to my ways 22 until the end, I will give authority over the nations. -
This is rubbish.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:The Jews are cut off from the trees....we should pity them for thier lack of faith.
In the OT messianic verses, gentiles will turn to the Jews during the messianic period.
Read Isaiah and other messianic accounts. Do you seriously think they are cut off from the tree? -
Romans 11
Paul is not speaking about a future millennial reign of Christ from Jerusalem that precedes the end of the world. No such thing is mentioned either in Romans 11 or any where else in Scripture. Paul is also not speaking about a future conversion of the Jews. Instead, he is speaking about the present conversion of the Jews. How do we know this?
Thus, Paul’s whole point in Romans 11 is to teach the Jews that they have salvation, here and now, not in the Old Covenant of works, but in the New Covenant of grace (v.6). Paul even says that the purpose of his mission to the Romans was to “make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them” (v.14). Paul is talking about saving the Jews of his day, and never refers to some fuzzy event in the distant future when God will suddenly effect a miraculous, universal conversion of their offspring. What good would that do for the Jews who lived during the Church age? God doesn’t work that way. God wants to save the Jews now. -
Yes...there is no need for judiasm since the Church now possese the means of salvation.Originally posted by Icemoon:This is rubbish.
In the OT messianic verses, gentiles will turn to the Jews during the messianic period.
Read Isaiah and other messianic accounts. Do you seriously think they are cut off from the tree? -
Go and read the messianic verses in the OT.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Yes...there is no need for judiasm since the Church now possese the means of salvation. -
like you said, he only loses his rewards, but he will still be saved (still have salvation).Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:So are u saying that sin will not nullify my salvation? Are u saying salvation occurs at a specific point in your life. I shall confute u using Scripture.
1 Cor 3:12-25
If works are unnecessary for salvation as you believe, then why is a man saved (not just rewarded) through fire by a judgment of his works?
You do know, Matthew 24, Jesus is talking about false prophets and false messiah misleading people into false doctrine and practices... causing lawlessness and lack of love.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Mat 24:13
But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved
His works or our works?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Jesus says he who conquers and keeps my works until the end will be rewarded in heaven. Jesus thus instructs us to keep his works to the very end. This is not necessary if we are "once saved, always saved."
Keep His works or Do His works?
cheers. -
quote:
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Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:
So are u saying that sin will not nullify my salvation? Are u saying salvation occurs at a specific point in your life. I shall confute u using Scripture.
1 Cor 3:12-25
If works are unnecessary for salvation as you believe, then why is a man saved (not just rewarded) through fire by a judgment of his works?
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Objection: like you said, he only loses his rewards, but he will still be saved (still have salvation).
My Reply: U misunderstood me. He does not gain nor lose any rewards. Work saved him. It did not give him rewards, but instead SAVED him.
quote:
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Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:
Mat 24:13
But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved
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Objection: You do know, Matthew 24, Jesus is talking about false prophets and false messiah misleading people into false doctrine and practices... causing lawlessness and lack of love.
My Reply: Then why did Christ say, only those who keep the faith to the end will be saved? If (considering Faith Alone) salvation was absolute, there will be no need to perserve as u will surely get it. I can safely conlcude than one can lose salvation through sin. Man must cooperate in his salvation.
quote:
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Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:
Jesus says he who conquers and keeps my works until the end will be rewarded in heaven. Jesus thus instructs us to keep his works to the very end. This is not necessary if we are "once saved, always saved."
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His works or our works?
Keep His works or Do His works?
cheers.
Still works...
Moreover when James asks “Can his faith save him?,” the answer is a resounding NO. James is talking about salvation. The answer to the question is NO because we must add works to our faith. Works just don't flow automatically out of true believers. The Bible never says anything about false faith or saving faith. Faith may truly exist, but it is not enough to save us. Even the demons believe in Jesus and tremble. Remember, James was talking to "saved Christians" in his epistle. Yet James continues to warn them to avoid sin and do good, or they will lose their salvation. That is because their faith was not enough to save them. -
Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:quote:
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Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:
So are u saying that sin will not nullify my salvation? Are u saying salvation occurs at a specific point in your life. I shall confute u using Scripture.
1 Cor 3:12-25
If works are unnecessary for salvation as you believe, then why is a man saved (not just rewarded) through fire by a judgment of his works?
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Objection: like you said, he only loses his rewards, but he will still be saved (still have salvation).
My Reply: U misunderstood me. He does not gain nor lose any rewards. Work saved him. It did not give him rewards, but instead SAVED him.
His works was destoryed by fire, meaning not acceptable, how then can unacceptable works save him? no, even his work is destoryed, he is still saved.
quote:
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Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:
Mat 24:13
But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved
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Objection: You do know, Matthew 24, Jesus is talking about false prophets and false messiah misleading people into false doctrine and practices... causing lawlessness and lack of love.
My Reply: Then why did Christ say, only those who keep the faith to the end will be saved? If (considering Faith Alone) salvation was absolute, there will be no need to perserve as u will surely get it. I can safely conlcude than one can lose salvation through sin. Man must cooperate in his salvation.
what type of faith? faith in Christ that saved, this is the faith we are to keep.
another note to consider, there are some who consider this to be an end times prophecy by Jesus, talking about the anti Christ (false prophets + false messiah, hence this endure could also means persecution. Now there are those who see this prophecy fulifilled when the Romans attack and burn down the Temple.
quote:
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Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:
Jesus says he who conquers and keeps my works until the end will be rewarded in heaven. Jesus thus instructs us to keep his works to the very end. This is not necessary if we are "once saved, always saved."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
His works or our works?
Keep His works or Do His works?
cheers.
Still works...
Moreover when James asks “Can his faith save him?,” the answer is a resounding NO. James is talking about salvation. The answer to the question is NO because we must add works to our faith. Works just don't flow automatically out of true believers. The Bible never says anything about false faith or saving faith. Faith may truly exist, but it is not enough to save us. Even the demons believe in Jesus and tremble. Remember, James was talking to "saved Christians" in his epistle. Yet James continues to warn them to avoid sin and do good, or they will lose their salvation. That is because their faith was not enough to save them.
still works? of course, unless you mean you can do His works.
quote properly for you, cause you put/add your own words into James' words.
James 2 : 13-14
What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you?
Let see how James expand on these
James 2 : 15- 16
15 If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill," and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that?
what he is saying here? to put it in a crude manner, don't just talk only, act one it. Don't just tell people, believe, believe, but you yourself don't believe.
Its a very practical teaching in term of practical living, how you interact and relate to others.
Its not contridicting Paul, when Paul says Salvation is by Faith in Christ Jesus, James is saying, since now that you had salvation, let your life reflected this reality that you already had salvation.
James 2 : 17-18
So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.
so what does these means then? can you show what you had believed without doing anything? Let me show you what I believed by how I live my life, this is what we called, lifestyle evangelism, meaning, let your life shows forth His testamonies (not because you need it to be saved, no, you are already saved), its for the world around you to see, and hopefully draws some to Christ. Thats why James says, let me show you my faith, my believe by how I live my life (my works).
Why dead? do you light a candle and hide it under the bed, if you do this, what good is the light? no, you put in on the table and let it lights light up the room around it. similarly, what good is your faith/believed to others if you just practice it behind the closet? how does it profits you and others?
James 2:19
You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder.
You believe that God is one, yes, even the demons believe and shudder.
Know that the Demons shudder because they know God will judged them, and there is no redemption. For you, do you just stop in God being the Judge? or do you put your faith in Christ and received salvation through His grace?
James 2:20
20 Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith apart from works is barren?
faith aparts from works is barren? means what? no fruits lah, what type of fruits? let me put it this way, is your works that result from your faith drawing people to Christ or driving them away from Christ?
At the end of the days, for all these works, be it well done or badly done, you will be saved (salvation assured) but you may lose your reward (reward not assured). -
Tell me, what is sin.
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when you don't meet God's target.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Tell me, what is sin. -
My freethinker friend thinks there's nothing wrong with going to hell. He says, "Good what, can go there and lose weight by burning fats."
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What is god's target?Originally posted by Icemoon:when you don't meet God's target. -
nothing wrong. its your choice.. just that it isnt a very wise oneOriginally posted by Skibi:So I ask again... what's wrong with going to hell?
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Think about the nature and character of God.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:What is god's target? -
depending on the person. For the Jews in the covenant, the commandments are the target.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:What is god's target?
For gentiles, there are less targets. Note that gentiles are NOT under the 10 commandments. -
goyim who accept Yeshua are under the 10 commandments. So is any one who wants to be part of Hashem.Originally posted by Icemoon:depending on the person. For the Jews in the covenant, the commandments are the target.
For gentiles, there are less targets. Note that gentiles are NOT under the 10 commandments. -
Told you liao .. there is no such thing as the 10 commandments.Originally posted by breytonhartge:goyim who accept Yeshua are under the 10 commandments. So is any one who wants to be part of Hashem.
Haiz. -
whatever you want to call them, they still exist and they are implemented, so how?Originally posted by Icemoon:Told you liao .. there is no such thing as the 10 commandments.
Haiz. -
Your understanding of the "10 commandments" is flawed.Originally posted by breytonhartge:whatever you want to call them, they still exist and they are implemented, so how?
For example, any subsequent reference to the laws or commandments cannot possibly be referring to the "10 commandments". So you cannot show that they are implemented.