Luther's Quote
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I came across this quotes which made me question is today protestantism movement a radical shift from the Reformation or is it the effects of Sola Scriptura???
"This one will not hear of Baptism, and that one denies the sacrament, another puts a world between this and the last day: some teach that Christ is not God, some say this, some say that: there are as many sects and creeds as there are heads. No yokel is so rude but when he has dreams and fancies, he thinks himself inspired by the Holy Ghost and must be a prophet."
De Wette III, 61. quoted in O'Hare, THE FACTS ABOUT LUTHER, 208.
"Noblemen, townsmen, peasants, all classes understand the Evangelium better than I or St. Paul; they are now wise and think themselves more learned than all the ministers."
Walch XIV, 1360. quoted in O'Hare, Ibid, 209.
I feel Martin Luther had encapsulated the effects of Scripture alone (WITHOUT a Church) very nicely. If i am not mistaken the orignal premise of Sola Scriptura was that the Church was infallible in interptrating Scripture alone and not Tradition. -
Erm .. don't get you.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:I feel Martin Luther had encapsulated the effects of Scripture alone (WITHOUT a Church) very nicely. If i am not mistaken the orignal premise of Sola Scriptura was that the Church was infallible in interptrating Scripture alone and not Tradition. -
OK this is one part im seek clarification.Originally posted by Icemoon:Erm .. don't get you.
Was Luther orignal premise of Sola Scriptura be -
1) The Church is only infallible in dealing with Scripture and not Tradition
2) private intepretation is wrong
3) All doctrines not mentioned explicitly in scripture must be done away by the Church.
Is this true?
Did Luther attacked the Papacy? -
Erm .. I thought you are the expert here?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:OK this is one part im seek clarification.
Was Luther orignal premise of Sola Scriptura be -
1) The Church is only infallible in dealing with Scripture and not Tradition
2) private intepretation is wrong
3) All doctrines not mentioned explicitly in scripture must be done away by the Church.
Is this true?
Did Luther attacked the Papacy?
I'm only interested in his Theology of the Cross.
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Ok i have read wikipedia and Sola Scriptura is about private intepretations. then why did Luther lament over people ignoring his theoliges (akin to modern day protestants)?Originally posted by Icemoon:Erm .. I thought you are the expert here?
I'm only interested in his Theology of the Cross. -
Mr Pope ah .. you no school ah? Don't need to do homework or prepare for lessons?
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LOL i do my hw mah....forum dont let me sleep off haha.Originally posted by Icemoon:Mr Pope ah .. you no school ah? Don't need to do homework or prepare for lessons?
I seating on my desk chair so invoking homework infallibility haha. -
in a nutshell, luther was disgusted by the corruption of the church and papacy....also among his agenda was to bring the scripture to the people by translating it to the language of the masses.....
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I dont think Luther was against the institution of the papacy. It was only when the Catholic inquisitor Johann Eck succeeded in winning him in a debate did his disgust at the POPE showed. But before that i doubt so.Originally posted by countdracula:in a nutshell, luther was disgusted by the corruption of the church and papacy....also among his agenda was to bring the scripture to the people by translating it to the language of the masses.....
Wikipedia:
Despite the fact that Eck was thus virtually forced to abandon his position, he succeeded, through his good memory and his dialectic skill, in confusing the heavy-witted Karlstadt and carried off the nominal victory. He was far less successful against Luther, who, as Eck himself confessed, was his superior in memory, acumen, and learning. After a disputation on the absolute supremacy of the papacy, purgatory, penance, etc., lasting twenty-three days (4 July–27 July), the arbitrators declined to give a verdict, but the general impression was that victory rested with Eck. He did succeed in making Luther admit that there was some truth in the Hussite opinions and declare himself against the pope, but this success only embittered his animosity against his opponents, and from that time his whole efforts were devoted to Luther's overthrow. Eck was greeted as victor by the theologians of the University of Leipzig, who overwhelmed him with honors and sent him away with gifts.
"Accordingly, we concede to the papacy that they sit in the true Church, possessing the office instituted by Christ and inherited from the apostles, to teach, baptize, administer the sacrament, absolve, ordain, etc., just as the Jews sat in their synagogues or assemblies and were the regularly established priesthood and authority of the Church. We admit all this and do not attack the office, although they are not willing to admit as much for us; yea, we confess that we have received these things from them, even as Christ by birth descended from the Jews and the apostles obtained the Scriptures from them."
Sermon for the Sunday after ChristÂ’s Ascension; John 15:26-16:4 (2nd sermon), page 265, paragraph 28, 1522
But the quotes i posted seemed to describe the modern day effect of sola scriptura so i was wondering was Luther version of sola scriptura vastly different from today's version??? Surely he will not criticise his own doctrines unless it was a mutated version of his own. Alas this is all speculations...maybe a lutheran can help me.
I personally feel Sola Scriptura was a formula to reform the Catholic Church. To remove doctrines that are still fallible like the canon and justification. I do not feel it was a means to form a counter-church or denominations. None of the reformers had any intention of forming another church. Which brings me back, was Luther idea of Sola Scriptura vastly different from modern day version.