Ever Virgin???
-
I was shocked last nite when a protestant debater friend questioned me on the perputal virginity of Mary but pointing to a verse in Scripture that says Jesus had brothers. While i refuted him pointing to the term aldephos means cousins as well etc etc.
I am curious, is this a Protestant view or just his demented denomination viewpoint which also believes if u cannot speak in tongues, u will not be saved. If Im not mistaken Luther, Calvin also beleived in the Ever Virgin Mary. -
How come you have so many debator friends one?
Don't waste time lah. You should spend the time understanding what is penance.
-
The evidence is strong that Jesus had brothers.
Or at least his brother James. Or else how you explain the office of the first bishop was given to James and not Peter?
Blood is thicker than water .. right or not? -
But james was the son of Alpheus (not Joseph) whose wife was Mary (sister of the Virgin)Originally posted by Icemoon:The evidence is strong that Jesus had brothers.
Or at least his brother James. Or else how you explain the office of the first bishop was given to James and not Peter?
Blood is thicker than water .. right or not?
Mat 10:3
Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James, the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddeus;
Mat 27:56
Among them were Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee
So who is this Mary, wife of Alpheus?
John 19:25
Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala.
Clopas is Alpehues in Aramic. Clopas is Greek.
Hence James is Jesus cousin. -
aldephos is Greek right?
are you sure Greek has no specific words to distinguish brothers and cousins? -
It is his denomination that believes.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:I was shocked last nite when a protestant debater friend questioned me on the perputal virginity of Mary but pointing to a verse in Scripture that says Jesus had brothers. While i refuted him pointing to the term aldephos means cousins as well etc etc.
I am curious, is this a Protestant view or just his demented denomination viewpoint which also believes if u cannot speak in tongues, u will not be saved. If Im not mistaken Luther, Calvin also beleived in the Ever Virgin Mary.
I subscribe to John Knox's belief. -
We can safely agree that James is not Christ brother but his cousin.Originally posted by Icemoon:aldephos is Greek right?
are you sure Greek has no specific words to distinguish brothers and cousins?
Because neither Hebrew nor Aramaic (the language spoken by Christ and his disciples) had a special word meaning "cousin," speakers of those languages could use either the word for "brother".
Why did Christ entrust his mother to the Apostle John and not this 'brothers'?
Icemoon, the historical evidence is too much.
An important historical document which supports the teaching of MaryÂ’s perpetual virginity is the Protoevangelium of James, which was written probably less than sixty years after the conclusion of MaryÂ’s earthly life (around A.D. 120), when memories of her life were still vivid in the minds of many.
Many Church Fathers and the Protestant Reformers also held that view....too lazy to quote. -
I am a debater as well haha.Originally posted by Icemoon:How come you have so many debator friends one?
Don't waste time lah. You should spend the time understanding what is penance. -
Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:
I have headache after trying to read throughs all the James, Johns and Marys. Read this - http://www.biblestudy.org/question/jesusfam.html - and tell me what is the author talking about.
We can safely agree that James is not Christ brother but his cousin.
Because neither Hebrew nor Aramaic (the language spoken by Christ and his disciples) had a special word meaning "cousin," speakers of those languages could use either the word for "brother".
Why did Christ entrust his mother to the Apostle John and not this 'brothers'?
Icemoon, the historical evidence is too much.
An important historical document which supports the teaching of MaryÂ’s perpetual virginity is the [b]Protoevangelium of James, which was written probably less than sixty years after the conclusion of MaryÂ’s earthly life (around A.D. 120), when memories of her life were still vivid in the minds of many.
Many Church Fathers and the Protestant Reformers also held that view....too lazy to quote.
[/b]
What's written in the Protoevangelium? I heard about it but never read the content. -
But MC not Presbyterian leh.Originally posted by M©+square:I subscribe to John Knox's belief. -
According to the Protoevangelium, Joseph was required to regard MaryÂ’s vow of virginity with the utmost respect. The gravity of his responsibility as the guardian of a virgin was indicated by the fact that, when she was discovered to be with child, he had to answer to the Temple authorities, who thought him guilty of defiling a virgin of the Lord. Mary was also accused of having forsaken the Lord by breaking her vow. Keeping this in mind, it is an incredible insult to the Blessed Virgin to say that she broke her vow by bearing children other than her Lord and God, who was conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit. I cannot imagine Joseph hjaving intercourse with the Spuose of the Holy Spirit and vessel of the Word. Such an act would have been sacrilegous.
Here it is:
And behold, an angel of the Lord stood by [St. Anne], saying, ‘Anne! Anne! The Lord has heard your prayer, and you shall conceive and shall bring forth, and your seed shall be spoken of in all the world.’ And Anne said, ‘As the Lord my God lives, if I beget either male or female, I will bring it as a gift to the Lord my God, and it shall minister to him in the holy things all the days of its life.’ . . . And [from the time she was three] Mary was in the temple of the Lord as if she were a dove that dwelt there" (Protoevangelium of James 4, 7 [A.D. 120]).
"And when she was twelve years old there was held a council of priests, saying, ‘Behold, Mary has reached the age of twelve years in the temple of the Lord. What then shall we do with her, lest perchance she defile the sanctuary of the Lord?’ And they said to the high priest, ‘You stand by the altar of the Lord; go in and pray concerning her, and whatever the Lord shall manifest to you, that also will we do.’ . . . [A]nd he prayed concerning her, and behold, an angel of the Lord stood by him saying, ‘Zechariah! Zechariah! Go out and assemble the widowers of the people and let them bring each his rod, and to whomsoever the Lord shall show a sign, his wife shall she be. . . . And Joseph [was chosen]. . . . And the priest said to Joseph, ‘You have been chosen by lot to take into your keeping the Virgin of the Lord.’ But Joseph refused, saying, ‘I have children, and I am an old man, and she is a young girl’" (ibid., 8–9).
"And Annas the scribe came to him [Joseph] . . . and saw that Mary was with child. And he ran away to the priest and said to him, ‘Joseph, whom you did vouch for, has committed a grievous crime.’ And the priest said, ‘How so?’ And he said, ‘He has defiled the virgin whom he received out of the temple of the Lord and has married her by stealth’" (ibid., 15).
"And the priest said, ‘Mary, why have you done this? And why have you brought your soul low and forgotten the Lord your God?’ . . . And she wept bitterly saying, ‘As the Lord my God lives, I am pure before him, and know not man’" (ibid.).
Church Fathers:
“And indeed it was a virgin, about to marry once for all after her delivery, who gave birth to Christ, in order that each title of sanctity might be fulfilled in Christ's parentage, by means of a mother who was both virgin, and wife of one husband. Again, when He is presented as an infant in the temple, who is it who receives Him into his hands? Who is the first to recognize Him in spirit? A man just and circumspect,' and of course no digamist, (which is plain) even (from this consideration), lest (otherwise) Christ should presently be more worthily preached by a woman, an aged widow, and the wife of one man;' who, living devoted to the temple, was (already) giving in her own person a sufficient token what sort of persons ought to be the adherents to the spiritual temple,--that is, the Church. Such eye-witnesses the Lord in infancy found; no different ones had He in adult age." Tertullian, On Monogamy, 8 (A.D. 213).
"For if Mary, as those declare who with sound mind extol her, had no other son but Jesus, and yet Jesus says to His mother, Woman, behold thy son,' and not Behold you have this son also,' then He virtually said to her, Lo, this is Jesus, whom thou didst bear.' Is it not the case that every one who is perfect lives himself no longer, but Christ lives in him; and if Christ lives in him, then it is said of him to Mary, Behold thy son Christ.' What a mind, then, must we have to enable us to interpret in a worthy manner this work, though it be committed to the earthly treasure-house of common speech, of writing which any passer-by can read, and which can be heard when read aloud by any one who lends to it his bodily ears?" Origen, Commentary on John, I:6 (A.D. 232).
"Therefore let those who deny that the Son is from the Father by nature and proper to His Essence, deny also that He took true human flesh of Mary Ever-Virgin; for in neither case had it been of profit to us men, whether the Word were not true and naturally Son of God, or the flesh not true which He assumed." Athanasius, Orations against the Arians, II:70 (A.D. 362). -
John Know also not Presbyterian mah...Originally posted by Icemoon:But MC not Presbyterian leh. -
I thought he is founder of the Presbyterian.Originally posted by M©+square:John Know also not Presbyterian mah... 
-
Lets look at some of the other places where this word 'aldephos' are also used
Its quite obvious that its was also used when describing a brother and not just a cousin.
Matthew 4:18
As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen.
Mark 12:19
"Teacher," they said, "Moses wrote for us that if a man's brother dies and leaves a wife but no children, the man must marry the widow and have children for his brother.
On the other hand
the same word 'aldephos' are being used (obviously not really brother, not as fellow brethens in the Lord)
1 Corinthians 8:11 So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge.
2 Peter 3:15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.
according to Strong's concordance
the greek word 'aldephos' can be used to refer to as a brother, both near or remote (ie. cousin).
Some arguments is that the brother ('aldephos') used here is refering to a cousin and not a brother, others argue that No, its refering directly to as a brother not just a cousin.
Mark 6:3
"Where did this man get these things?" they asked. "What's this wisdom that has been given him, that he even does miracles! Isn't this the carpenter? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.
Galatians 1:19
I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord's brother.
many traditions uses
To show that that Mary the mother of James and Joses is just an auntie, as she was not at the cross with Christ but standing from a distance (a deduction based on the thought that no mother will want to be at a distance watching her child being excuted instead of by His side).
Matthew 17:55-56
Many women were there, watching from a distance. They had followed Jesus from Galilee to care for his needs. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's sons.
logical? yes
but a questioning mind would also ask, perhaps she was at a distance unwillingly, being unable to
The best argument which I have come across is
If James is the Brother of Christ, Son of His mother Mary, why did He (Christ) asked John to take care of Mary, His mother and not James?
John 19:25-27 Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.
or is it because he have something else for James to do?
questions, questions, questions?????[/quote] -
Not sure for the 'brothers' but Apostle John has a long and blessed life. Not Peter, the chief disciple. Not James, the first bishop.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Why did Christ entrust his mother to the Apostle John and not this 'brothers'?
So what's left of the pillars? Only John right?
At least we know James did not have a long life. He lived in Jerusalem, the hotbed of Jewish activity. Both Rome and Jerusalem very dangerous 'cos there were persecutions on and off. -
Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:
I was shocked last nite when a protestant debater friend questioned me on the perputal virginity of Mary but pointing to a verse in Scripture that says Jesus had brothers. While i refuted him pointing to the term aldephos means cousins as well etc etc.
I am curious, is this a Protestant view or just his demented denomination viewpoint which also believes if u cannot speak in tongues, u will not be saved. If Im not mistaken Luther, Calvin also beleived in the Ever Virgin Mary.Luke 8:19-21 NIV
Hope this can answer your question.
Now Jesus' mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd. Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you."
He replied, "My mother and brothers are those who hear God's word and put it into practice." -
LOL aldepheus means cousins and James has been proven to be son of Clopas whose wife is Mary sister whose name is also Mary. James is hence Jesus blood cousin.Originally posted by Skibi:Hope this can answer your question.
Can anyone explain to me why has the age old concept of perpetual virginity been called into question very recently. The Church Fathers and Protestant Reformers had no question about that. -
Aldepheus doesn't mean cousin(s). It means brother(s) in Greek.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:LOL aldepheus means cousins and James has been proven to be son of Clopas whose wife is Mary sister whose name is also Mary. James is hence Jesus blood cousin.
Can anyone explain to me why has the age old concept of perpetual virginity been called into question very recently. The Church Fathers and Protestant Reformers had no question about that.
Furthermore .. the frequent association of Jesus with his "cousins" is a bit strange. Did you read the article I send? -
Now we have four 'brothers', JAMES, JO'SES, SIMON, and JUDE to account for as written in Mk 6:3...
Mk 15:40, "There were also women looking on afar off: among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of JAMES the less and of JO'SES, and Salome." These people were at the crucifixion.
Jn 19:25, "Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother (Mary) and His mothers sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene."
Note that if in this verse the word "sister" meant blood sister, that she is not named here. The context and placement of the commas preclude that there were two girls in the same family, both having the same name of Mary. Would not this cause much confusion in the family? By careful comparison to Mk 15:40 it is seen that Mary the Mother of Jesus is not mentioned, but Salome is. Also Salome is indirectly mentioned in Matt 27:56 as the mother of the sons of Zebedee. It can therefore be assumed that Salome is the unnamed sister of Mary in this verse.
Mt 10:2-3, "...'JAMES' the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddeus." Alphaeus is an alternate translation of Cleophas (Clophas) and so he is the same person.
Acts 1:13, "...JAMES, the son of Alphaeus, and SIMON Zelo'tes, and JUDE the brother of JAMES."
From these four passages, we see we have another 'Mary', who was the wife of Cleophas (Alphaeus), and the mother of three of Jesus's 'brethren', JAMES (the less), and JO'SES, and JUDE. This clearly shows that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was not the mother of JAMES, JO'SES, and JUDE of Mk 6:3. To keep Mk 6:3 in harmony, since three are not children of Mary, the mother of Jesus, then SIMON is not either. SIMON is the Canaanite Mk 3:18, also called the 'Zealot' (Zelo'tes), Mt 10:4, Lk 6:15, Acts 1:13. Jude, who authored the Epistle of Jude, says he is the brother of James in Jude 1:1. Jude was also called 'Thaddeus' in Mt 10:3, and in Mk 3:18. This was to distinguish him from Judas Iscariot. Lk 6:16 further distinguishes the two by saying, "And Judas (Jude) the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, which also was the traitor."
---Zebedee------Mt 4:21,Mk 1:19, Mk 3:17----------------
+ >------begat--------James and John-------------------------
---Salome------------Mt 27:56, Mk 15:40--------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---Cleophas-(Alphaeus)--Mt 10:2-3, Jn 19:25, Acts 1:13------
+ >------begat------James (the less), Joseph (Joses), and Jude---------
---Mary----the other Mary, Mt 27:56,61, 28:1, Jn 19:25------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---THE HOLY SPIRIT------Lk 1:35-38----------------------
+ >------begat------JESUS THE CHRIST--------------------
---Mary---------------------Lk 1:30-38-----------------------
I did...but its biblical proven that James is the cousin of Jesus as above. And mind u Mary had consecretated herself as a Virgin even before Gabriel had appeared. This is biblical and tradition.
Bible verses:
When the angel Gabriel appeared to Mary and told her that she would conceive a son, she asked, "How can this be since I have no relations with a man?" (Luke 1:34). From the ChurchÂ’s earliest days, as the Fathers interpreted this Bible passage, MaryÂ’s question was taken to mean that she had made a vow of lifelong virginity, even in marriage. (This was not common, but neither was it unheard of.) If she had not taken such a vow, the question would make no sense.
Mary knew how babies are made (otherwise she wouldnÂ’t have asked the question she did). If she had anticipated having children in the normal way and did not intend to maintain a vow of virginity, she would hardly have to ask "how" she was to have a child, since conceiving a child in the "normal" way would be expected by a newlywed wife. Her question makes sense only if there was an apparent (but not a real) conflict between keeping a vow of virginity and acceding to the angelÂ’s request. A careful look at the New Testament shows that Mary kept her vow of virginity and never had any children other than Jesus
( Catholic Answers : Brethen of the Lord) -
Maybe Matthew or Luke made a mistake?
-
How so? Its pretty obvious James and his 'brothers' were Jesus cousins. If there were his brothers, the Protestant Reformers would have a big hoo hah instead of being silent till recently in the rise of Evangelist Fundamentalism.Originally posted by Icemoon:Maybe Matthew or Luke made a mistake?
James son of ALPHEUS not JOSEPH -
Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:
How I wish a better verse is being used and not this one.
I did...but its biblical proven that James is the cousin of Jesus as above. And mind u Mary had consecretated herself as a Virgin even before Gabriel had appeared. This is biblical and tradition.
Bible verses:
When the angel Gabriel appeared to Mary and told her that she would conceive a son, she asked, "[b]How can this be since I have no relations with a man?" (Luke 1:34). From the ChurchÂ’s earliest days, as the Fathers interpreted this Bible passage, MaryÂ’s question was taken to mean that she had made a vow of lifelong virginity, even in marriage. (This was not common, but neither was it unheard of.) If she had not taken such a vow, the question would make no sense.
Mary knew how babies are made (otherwise she wouldnÂ’t have asked the question she did). If she had anticipated having children in the normal way and did not intend to maintain a vow of virginity, she would hardly have to ask "how" she was to have a child, since conceiving a child in the "normal" way would be expected by a newlywed wife. Her question makes sense only if there was an apparent (but not a real) conflict between keeping a vow of virginity and acceding to the angelÂ’s request. A careful look at the New Testament shows that Mary kept her vow of virginity and never had any children other than Jesus
( Catholic Answers : Brethen of the Lord)
[/b]
For the record, This verse/statement was made when the angel Gabriel first appear to Mary and tell her about the forth coming event, that she will be with a Child (Luke 1: 26-3
"How can this be since I have no relations with a man?" (Luke 1:34).
Now, This statement may not be that she had taken a vow, but rather making a statement of fact, that she is not married, and that she had kept her chasity. Its normal and expected for a woman (at that time and culture) to remain a virgin (not have relation with a man) before they are married, and this is the status of Mary at that moment in time when this statement was made (otherwise, its called adultery, and its death by stoning).
What you said is reasonable if its expected of a newlywed, but not an unwed (reason: at this moment, Joseph had not taken Mary as his wife yet, meaning not married yet, meaning not a newly wed)
make it this way, if they are married, why is it an embrassment that Mary is pregnant? and why would God had to tell Joseph not to be afraid to take Mary as his wife? -
Originally posted by vince69:
1) If she was normal like all wedded wife, she wont be asking how is it possible for her to be pregnant unless she has taken a vow of virginity
How I wish a better verse is being used and not this one.
For the record, This verse/statement was made when the angel Gabriel first appear to Mary and tell her about the forth coming event, that she will be with a Child (Luke 1: 26-3
"[b]How can this be since I have no relations with a man?" (Luke 1:34).
Now, This statement may not be that she had taken a vow, but rather making a statement of fact, that she is not married, and that she had kept her chasity. Its normal and expected for a woman (at that time and culture) to remain a virgin (not have relation with a man) before they are married, and this is the status of Mary at that moment in time when this statement was made (otherwise, its called adultery, and its death by stoning).
What you said is reasonable if its expected of a newlywed, but not an unwed (reason: at this moment, Joseph had not taken Mary as his wife yet, meaning not married yet, meaning not a newly wed)
make it this way, if they are married, why is it an embrassment that Mary is pregnant? and why would God had to tell Joseph not to be afraid to take Mary as his wife?
[/b]
2) Joseph was afriad for he has defiled a virgin.
3) Historical documents proves this view.
The major view is that James is not his brother for his father is Clopas. -
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Luke 8:19-21 NIV
Now Jesus' mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd. Someone told him, "Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you."
He replied, "My mother and brothers are those who hear God's word and put it into practice."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Why are we still arguing about this topic? IIRC Jesus' brothers were never part of the twelve.
That aside, the idea of Mary remaining a virgin after being married to Joseph is wrong. Do you expect Joseph to remain a virgin as well? Did God command Mary and Joseph to be both virgins? So both virgins can co-habit together in the same house and have a son... do you have any idea how ridiculous this sounds? -
1) She is not a wedded wife, the wedding not yet.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:1) If she was normal like all wedded wife, she wont be asking how is it possible for her to be pregnant unless she has taken a vow of virginity
2) Joseph was afriad for he has defiled a virgin.
3) Historical documents proves this view.
The major view is that James is not his brother for his father is Clopas.
2) Joseph was not afraid he defiled a virgin, Mary was already betroth to him to be his wife when this statement was made, he did not want to expose her to public disgrace.
Matthew 1:18-20
18This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. 19Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.
20But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
3) you may want to indicate the historical documents.
(oh, pls note that I am not contesting against "the doctrine of perpetual virgin of Mary", I am only contesting the use of this verse to show it)
4) The word Aldepheus used means a brother, could be used when descirbing a direct brother, like Simon and Andrew, or a cousin, or even a church brethen, Paul and Timothy. so to say that James is a cousin and not a direct brother is not unreasonable.