will god forgive me
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he got other theologies meh?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:I read ur theology of Cross vs Theology of Glory.
Luther view seems more logical
But why were his other theologies so radical???
Other protestant theologies were from other fathers.
Luther's main contribution was his emphasis on the Cross. His conclusion was that God works in paradox! -
Before God, its done deal, sin absolved (God don't change His mind).Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Its a small issue. It gives an explanation abt the binding and loosing bit in John but penance, nothing much. Im curious... If i fail to commit my penance, am i forgiven or have i already been forgiven and penance is merely a price to pay?
Before Man, it may not be. -
Doubt so, a sin is still a sin before God.Originally posted by vince69:Before God, its done deal, sin absolved (God don't change His mind).
Before Man, it may not be.
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I mean Christ gave the pwoers of retaining sins to his Apostles and the Church. But is penance part of a condition to get ur sins absolved or merely a a price to pay? A larger example would be purgatory, do I go there to participate in the cleansing of my sins or is it temporal punishment?Originally posted by vince69:Before God, its done deal, sin absolved (God don't change His mind).
Before Man, it may not be. -
Didnt he come out with Sola Scriptura?Originally posted by Icemoon:he got other theologies meh?
Other protestant theologies were from other fathers.
Luther's main contribution was his emphasis on the Cross. His conclusion was that God works in paradox!
Martin Luther:
"Accordingly, we concede to the papacy that they sit in the true Church, possessing the office instituted by Christ and inherited from the apostles, to teach, baptize, administer the sacrament, absolve, ordain, etc., just as the Jews sat in their synagogues or assemblies and were the regularly established priesthood and authority of the Church. We admit all this and do not attack the office, although they are not willing to admit as much for us; yea, we confess that we have received these things from them, even as Christ by birth descended from the Jews and the apostles obtained the Scriptures from them."
Sermon for the Sunday after ChristÂ’s Ascension; John 15:26-16:4 (2nd sermon), page 265, paragraph 28, 1522.
Anyways, Luther called the Pope an anti-christ, than what does this mean? Did he call the Pope or the papacy the antichrist? I do know the POpe responded by labelling him the Child of Satan. Is there a contradiction? -
I shall first try to discuss this with you from the Catholic point of view (on best effort basis only).Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:I mean Christ gave the pwoers of retaining sins to his Apostles and the Church. But is penance part of a condition to get ur sins absolved or merely a a price to pay? A larger example would be purgatory, do I go there to participate in the cleansing of my sins or is it temporal punishment?
1) Given that the power to retain or release (let loose) was given by Christ (who through His sheding of His precious blood on the cross paid the price required for the atonment of our sins),
2) And that He had said (as recorded) that whatever is set loose on earth will also be set loose in heaven.
I am of the opinion that as far as God is concern, its done, paid in full by Christ our Lord.
as for purgatory, someone once told me that its for those unabsolved sins, example; unintentional sins (some time we may do the wrong things and we don't even know about it) ...etc or some inperfections in our deeds that need to be purged before entering heaven (NOTE: only for those who are already saved, and purgatory is like a preparation zone).
Penance on the other hand is to make right, what is done wrong. after prononcement of the sins had been absolved, the priest may lead the person to do penance, it got be to return what is taken, to go say sorry, to do some charity work, to recite the rosary ....etc, it not about making it right with God, but rather making it right with Man (and in certain degree, Self).
OK.... this is according to my own understanding, maybe the more knowledgable Catholic brethens can correct me.
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From my personal understanding of the Protestant point of view,
Christ had paid the price in full, His blood being both eternal and permanent, is able to wash me clean.
So its
Get right with God (repentance, received forgiveness)
Get right with Man (go say sorry, make right the wrong things ...etc)
Its is that we know that we had make right with God (no more condemnation from God) that we can face the punishment, or the strength to make good the wrong deeds ...etc.
cheers.
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Haha pretty accurate.Originally posted by vince69:I shall first try to discuss this with you from the Catholic point of view (on best effort basis only).
1) Given that the power to retain or release (let loose) was given by Christ (who through His sheding of His precious blood on the cross paid the price required for the atonment of our sins),
2) And that He had said (as recorded) that whatever is set loose on earth will also be set loose in heaven.
I am of the opinion that as far as God is concern, its done, paid in full by Christ our Lord.
as for purgatory, someone once told me that its for those unabsolved sins, example; unintentional sins (some time we may do the wrong things and we don't even know about it) ...etc or some inperfections in our deeds that need to be purged before entering heaven (NOTE: only for those who are already saved, and purgatory is like a preparation zone)
Penance on the other hand is to make right, what is done wrong. after prononcement of the sins had been absolved, the priest may lead the person to do penance, it got be to return what is taken, to go say sorry, to do some charity work, to recite the rosary ....etc, it not about making it right with God, but rather making it right with Man (and in certain degree, Self).
OK.... this is according to my own understanding, maybe the more knowledgable Catholic brethens can correct me.
***********************
From my personal understanding of the Protestant point of view,
Christ had paid the price in full, His blood being both eternal and permanent, is able to wash me clean.
So its
Get right with God (repentance, received forgiveness)
Get right with Man (go say sorry, make right the wrong things ...etc)
Its is that we know that we had make right with God (no more condemnation from God) that we can face the punishment, or the strength to make good the wrong deeds ...etc.
cheers.
But i was refering not to Mat 18:18 but
"And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.'" John 20:23
That was after the ressurection so the price being in full thingy not really relevant.
Penance is necesssary I agree. But is it a means to cooperate with God to get ur sins forgiven or is it punsihment? -
It is my understanding, Penance should not be see as to cooperate with God to get ur sins forgiven, for this means the blood of Christ is not enough, and when He said its set loose in heaven, to me, His yes is a yes and not a maybe; Nor should it be seen as a punishment, for Christ had bore it.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Haha pretty accurate.
But i was refering not to Mat 18:18 but
"And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.'" John 20:23
That was after the ressurection so the price being in full thingy not really relevant.
Penance is necesssary I agree. But is it a means to cooperate with God to get ur sins forgiven or is it punsihment?
Penance then at most should be seen as a chance to make right the things that are wrong, to get back in peace with the wronged party and also ourselves (remove the self imposed condemnation and guilt). If I not wrong, the heart attitude when doing penance also very important, perhaps as important or even more important than the act itself.
cheers. -
But most people will argue God wants us to particpate in his work etc etc. This is the basis of the Faith vs faith and work. I believe lutherans methodist and catholics have signed a agreement on this.Originally posted by vince69:In my opinion, Penance should not be see as to cooperate with God to get ur sins forgiven, for this means the blood of Christ is not enough, and when He said its set loose in heaven, to me, His yes is a yes and not a maybe; Nor should it be seen as a punishment, for Christ had bore it.
To me, Penance at most should be seen as a chance to make right the things that are wrong, to get back in peace with the wronged party and also ourselves (remove the self imposed condemnation and guilt). If I not wrong, the heart attitude when doing penance also very important, perhaps as important or even more important than the act itself.
cheers.
For me, I feel penance is part of teh retaining sins which the Church possese. Your sins are retained till u fulfil the penance etc etc??? Is that logical? -
I shall not comment on the whatever agreement you mentioned, reason being I have no understanding regarding this.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:But most people will argue God wants us to particpate in his work etc etc. This is the basis of the Faith vs faith and work. I believe lutherans methodist and catholics have signed a agreement on this.
For me, I feel penance is part of teh retaining sins which the Church possese. Your sins are retained till u fulfil the penance etc etc??? Is that logical?
But I do want to aks you this, from your understanding,
1) By whose scrafice was our sins atoned?
2) what does Christ means when he said
Matthew 18:18
"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
? is it a definite thing? or a conditional thing? -
1) Christ Sacrifice. However u feel its done once and over with. I feel its been continually offered up to the Father. He shed his blood once but the priest offers it up (through bread and wine cum blood and flesh) continually to the Father for the atoning of sins. Thats bascially Mass whose litury is well described in the book of revelations.Originally posted by vince69:I shall not comment on the whatever agreement you mentioned, reason being I have no understanding regarding this.
But I do want to aks you this, from your understanding,
1) By whose scrafice was our sins atoned?
2) what does Christ means when he said
Matthew 18:18
"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
? is it a definite thing? or a conditional thing?
2) Thats refers to doctrinal issues. That wadeva the Apostles binded as a group will be bounded in heaven. Binding and loosing is basically the rabbinic means of making doctrinal issues. the Church (not Scripture) is the final authority on questions of the faith. This demands infallibility when teaching the faith. She must be prevented from teaching error in order to lead her members to the fullness of salvation. But this authority requires a visible Church because "binding and loosing" are visible acts. The Church cannot be invisible, or it cannot bind and loose. Hence it refers to the Church ratifying issues infallibily and forgiving sins which is further highlighted in John 20:23. -
not here to contest your understanding of them, based on your views here, do you think its logical what you do or did not do or inability to perform, can have the power to hinder or even stop this God given authority to bind and loose, or maybe even dampen the perfectness of the blood of Christ (noticed that your deeds was not even mentioned in the 1st part of your answer)?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:1) Christ Sacrifice. However u feel its done once and over with. I feel its been continually offered up to the Father. He shed his blood once but the priest offers it up (through bread and wine cum blood and flesh) continually to the Father for the atoning of sins. Thats bascially Mass whose litury is well described in the book of revelations.
2) Thats refers to doctrinal issues. That wadeva the Apostles binded as a group will be bounded in heaven. Binding and loosing is basically the rabbinic means of making doctrinal issues. the Church (not Scripture) is the final authority on questions of the faith. This demands infallibility when teaching the faith. She must be prevented from teaching error in order to lead her members to the fullness of salvation. But this authority requires a visible Church because "binding and loosing" are visible acts. The Church cannot be invisible, or it cannot bind and loose. Hence it refers to the Church ratifying issues infallibily and forgiving sins which is further highlighted in John 20:23. -
I view it that u nid to do ur penance for ur sins to be loose until then it is binded. But why view Mat 18:18 instead of John 20:23??? God transferred his authority to his church so i think it can withold forgiveness if necessary until penance through binding and loosing.Originally posted by vince69:not here to contest your understanding of them, based on your views here, do you think its logical what you do or did not do or inability to perform, can have the power to hinder or even stop this God given authority to bind and loose, or maybe even dampen the perfectness of the blood of Christ (noticed that your deeds was not even mentioned in the 1st part of your answer)?
No one contesting abt dampening the Blood of Christ. I said its the perfect offering to the Father which is why priest conduct Mass.
I think catholics view the sacrifice at calvary as an on-going process till today while protestant view it as "it is finished". Correct me if i am wrong. -
Every guilty person is his own hangman.
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I know about the difference, like I said, perhaps from the Catholic point of view.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:I view it that u nid to do ur penance for ur sins to be loose until then it is binded. But why view Mat 18:18 instead of John 20:23??? God transferred his authority to his church so i think it can withold forgiveness if necessary until penance through binding and loosing.
No one contesting abt dampening the Blood of Christ. I said its the perfect offering to the Father which is why priest conduct Mass.
I think catholics view the sacrifice at calvary as an on-going process till today while protestant view it as "it is finished". Correct me if i am wrong.
allow me to backtrack to the earlier post when this discussion started
In the words of Absolution in the Roman rite you posted,Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:The words of Absolution in the Roman rite takes this form:
God the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of his Son, has reconciled the world to Himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
The essential words, however, are "I absolve you from your sins. + In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
He acts in persona christi.
But wat is penance exactly? Is it means of cooperating wif God to get ur sins forgiven or merely a price to be paid for ur trangressions or both???
Think about it, was this said after penance or after confession?
If its after penance, than you are correct.
If its after confession (before penance), then what you says will means that your undoing of the penance is able to undo what the Priest had pronounce In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
Christ said, Let your yes be a yes, and a no be a no. if the Priest pronounce that he absolve you from your sins. + In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, he have to mean it, unless, the the phrase "after you had done your penance correctly" is added into the pronouncement. -
Oui TS what did you do?
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Oh ... before others got confused as to what we are doing here between the Pope and myself, we are just following a train of thoughts regarding the Catholic views of Penance and its role.
at least to me, its a discusion of thoughts, Bible Study Style. -
A discussion not a prot vs catholic debate haha.Originally posted by vince69:Oh ... before others got confused as to what we are doing here between the Pope and myself, we are just following a train of thoughts regarding the Catholic views of Penance and its role.
at least to me, its a discusion of thoughts, Bible Study Style.
But the priest can retain sins as well which means forgiveness can only take place after penance which means we must particpate to recieve grace. But if penance is merely punishment then we are unable to partipate in God's forgiveness etc etc.
My question is: Is penance a punishment of our sins OR a means to allow us to participate in recieving his grace and working towards absolving of our sins?
I shall check the catechism to see is there a proper explanation. -
Source - wikipedia
Penance was originally meant to be something good. i.e apologising to the injured party and compensating him or her for the hurt caused. In the case where no one was harmed, penance was meant for the person seeking forgiveness to do good deeds like charitable work to atone for his sins.
"Penance" also refers to acts that a believer imposes on him or herself outside of the sacramental context. Penitential activity is particularly common during the season of Lent and Holy Week (mainly the Passion week, inspired by Christ's suffering; hence in some cultural traditions still including flagellantism or even voluntary crucifixion) and, to a lesser extent, Advent, when penance is often combined with acts of self-discipline, such as fasting, voluntary celibacy, or other privations. In the Roman Catholic tradition especially, such acts of self-injury are sometimes called mortification of the flesh because of the belief that an unrestrained corporeal body endangers salvation, unless controlled by the spirit, serving to detach the penitent of his worldly passions, as to draw him into closer union with God.
I strongly condemn penance with the intention of hurting oneself. This is morally wrong as the body is the temple of God, and additionaly it serves no real purpose other than self-edification. Instead of taking a negative view and inflicting (self) punishment isn't it better to do good and help others that they may praise God too? -
Erm that is not a practice of the Catholic Church. However sufferings bring u closer to good thats why u fast etc etc. If done with a good intention, so be it. Many Church Fathers castrated themselves etc etc.Originally posted by Skibi:Penance was originally meant to be something good. i.e apologising to the injured party and compensating him or her for the hurt caused. In the case where no one was harmed, penance was meant for the person seeking forgiveness to do good deeds like charitable work to atone for his sins.
I strongly condemn penance with the intention of hurting oneself. This is morally wrong as the body is the temple of God, and additionaly it serves no real purpose other than self-edification. Instead of taking a negative view and inflicting (self) punishment isn't it better to do good and help others that they may praise God too?
Penance is more like
a) a price to pay for your sins - removing temproal punishments
b) a neccessary means to reconcile with God to attain forgivness.
I feel (a) is Catholic doctrine and (b) is my own thought haha. -
masturbation is wrong in the view of christianality ?????Originally posted by Darkness_hacker99: -
Its a capital sin...mortal my brother.Originally posted by Taiwanpolitics:masturbation is wrong in the view of christianality ????? -
Maybe this site can help you.
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It advocates masturbation which is against Christianity. Desist the heresy and lust within.Originally posted by Tan Ah Teck:Maybe this site can help you.