Church Communion - is it wrong?
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That's why he needs training and practice isn't it?Originally posted by laoda99:Haizzz.....I just hope that nobody else beside Skibi will duan4 zhang1 qu3 yi2.....
it is quite frustrating really......
EH is his dojo.
He trains and you can also practise your refutation skills. -
I only wish he can post something constructive.Originally posted by Icemoon:That's why he needs training and practice isn't it?
EH is his dojo.
He trains and you can also practise your refutation skills.
Everything he post is against the church and what Christians believe in. -
Originally posted by davidche:
David your pastor has good intentions, it is always good to remember Jesus' death and ask for forgiveness of sins. But don't you think that it is better to be able to seek forgiveness and ask for blessings/healing all the time instead of just at communion service? Jesus loves us like a parent and we always can ask him for things anytime.
The way i see it. The holy communion is used to remember Jesus's death and asking our sins to be forgiven. Some pastors say we can ask for blessing or healing at the same time we pray for forgiving our sins before the communion.
Ritual? not really, like i said.......................................................(as above lol)..........................................................................................................................
I would like it if you focus on why we would be judged by God by observing the holy communion...basically whats wrong with it....
One of the reasons why Jesus never asks us to have communion service is that it can cause problems within the church as Paul points out...1 Corinthians 11:18-19 NIV
Imagine a member skips communion service a couple of times, how to you suppose the others in the same church will treat him? Now what if the pastor himself skips communion service?
In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval.
Remember, the communion service does give anybody the right to be holier than anyone else as it is not required by God in the first place.
Thus if the member who skips communion gets told off, or the pastor who absents himself without valid reason gets a warning from his superiors - who is commiting the greater sin here? Certainly not the 'backsliding' member or the 'errant' pastor.
Consider the following...Matthew 18:32-35 NIV
Thus if the members feel upset that their pastor has absent himself from communion, they are in the wrong. i.e they perform communion to ask for forgiveness from God but yet do not forgive their brethren pastor.
"Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
"This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."
Compounded to this sin is that when asking for forgiveness during communion they are handling the body and blood of Christ.1 Corinthians 11:27 NIV
Can you see the kind of problems this creates?
Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. -
This quote is not even talking abt Holy Communion.Originally posted by Skibi:quote:
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1 Corinthians 11:18-19 NIV
In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval.
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I can see you are creating a lot of problems with ur posts.Originally posted by Skibi:quote:
Can you see the kind of problems this creates? -
Originally posted by laoda99:This quote is not even talking abt Holy Communion.
skibi won't the last guy to pick verses out of context. Obviously he has yet to discover the usefulness of using Bible commentaries and concordances...
for some strange and twisted reason, he reminds of someone he has stopped coming to EH. -
oh, i see your problem here liao.Originally posted by Skibi:Can you see the kind of problems this creates?
You disagree to the holy communion because it CAN CAUSE people to sin, as seen from what you have explained above.
right?
" it can make a false sense of being holier, etc...."
so holy communion can cause people to sin.
Walking on the streets may cause you your death, but you still walk 'carefully'(obeserving the traffic rules etc..)
On ther other hand, may it be, that the disiple, as he was writing:
he was telling us to watch out during the communion , not to make the mistakes. This assumes that there is or should be a holy commuion.
Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.
Unker eng would have done a better job explaining to you...
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Originally posted by davidche:
A more fitting example would be, when you make a promise should you involve God's name? The answer is no.
Walking on the streets may cause you your death, but you still walk 'carefully'(obeserving the traffic rules etc..)
he was telling us to watch out during the communion , not to make the mistakes. This assumes that there is or should be a holy commuion.
Similarly when you ask for forgiveness and blessings, do you need to handle or consume the body and blood of Christ? The answer is again no. -
Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord."
Doesnt this verse prove the Real Presence? How can u be guilty of profaning/murdering a symbol???
Every Christian since Apostolic Times particpated in communion. -
Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord."
Doesnt this verse prove the Real Presence? How can u be guilty of profaning/murdering a symbol???
Every Christian since Apostolic Times particpated in communion.
though I agree with you on the 'Real Presence' part, I am not sure if the verses you quote is talking about it (at least not directly), however, in Luke 22 (and also other parts of the Scripture where the event of the Holy Communion was taught)
Luke 22:19
NRSV : Then he took a loaf of bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me."
Douay-Rheims : And taking bread, he gave thanks and brake and gave to them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me.
It is recorded that Christ, our Lord said it, "This is my body......etc", and not "This represent my body ...etc" or "This is a symbol of my body ...etc".
Which can be use directly for the support of the doctrine of 'Real Presence during the Holy Communion'
cheers. -
U be surprised at how some Protestants can twist this verse.Originally posted by vince69:though I agree with you on the 'Real Presence' part, I am not sure if the verses you quote is talking about it (at least not directly), however, in Luke 22 (and also other parts of the Scripture where the event of the Holy Communion was taught)
It is recorded that Christ, our Lord said it, "This is my body......etc", and not "This represent my body ...etc" or "This is a symbol of my body ...etc".
Which can be use directly for the support of the doctrine of 'Real Presence during the Holy Communion'
cheers.
My personal favourite is John 6:66. It is the Jews who rejected Christ by refusing to eat his flesh. Note the 666. -
The purpose of Holy Communion is NOT to ask for forgiveness and blessings. While forgiveness and blessings CAN BE asked, the purpose is to remember the sacrifice of our Lord - Luke 22:19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."Originally posted by Skibi:Similarly when you ask for forgiveness and blessings, do you need to handle or consume the body and blood of Christ? The answer is again no.
What I like to know, skibi, is: have you check with any pastors or scholars with all your ludicrious claims. To make it simpler for you, do you have any point of references for all those things you had posted. -
Im not sure, in Catholicism, i think it can help in atoning sins. But skibi is not catholic so.......Originally posted by Chin Eng:The purpose of Holy Communion is NOT to ask for forgiveness and blessings. While forgiveness and blessings CAN BE asked, the purpose is to remember the sacrifice of our Lord - Luke 22:19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."
What I like to know, skibi, is: have you check with any pastors or scholars with all your ludicrious claims. To make it simpler for you, do you have any point of references for all those things you had posted. -
He dun. Skibi is a self-made theologian.Originally posted by Chin Eng:The purpose of Holy Communion is NOT to ask for forgiveness and blessings. While forgiveness and blessings CAN BE asked, the purpose is to remember the sacrifice of our Lord - Luke 22:19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."
What I like to know, skibi, is: have you check with any pastors or scholars with all your ludicrious claims. To make it simpler for you, do you have any point of references for all those things you had posted. -
Skibi needs a crash course in both theology and legal studies. Obviously, he shouldn't have chosen such a topic and section to argue about.
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Originally posted by laoda99:He dun. Skibi is a self-made theologian. self-declared more like it....
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
It is very sad that the same christians who claim that good deeds are not important to enter the kingdom of heaven champion the cause of meaningless and unnecessary(or even detrimental) ones.
The purpose of Holy Communion is NOT to ask for forgiveness and blessings. While forgiveness and blessings CAN BE asked, the purpose is to remember the sacrifice of our Lord - Luke 22:19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."
What I like to know, skibi, is: have you check with any pastors or scholars with all your ludicrious claims. To make it simpler for you, do you have any point of references for all those things you had posted.
Jesus' sacrifice does not end with his death. It is but the beginning. Even now he is our high priest in heaven pleading with his Father to forgive our sins. Instead of commemorating a person who has died, isn't it better to rejoice with him when he is alive? Indeed, Jesus is alive in heaven and is suffering together with us by abstaining from communion until we are with him in heaven again.
Communion service is morally wrong.
1. Jesus did not command or request it.
2. It is meant to be a joyful event but christians today make it a sad one. (see Passover feast)
3. Jesus himself abstains from communion in heaven. As his followers we should share the burden together with him.
Communion service calls down unnecessary judgement on ourselfs.
1. Handling the body and blood of Jesus is similar to swearing an oath using God's name. Remembrance can and should be done everyday without the need for invoking holy objects.
Lastly, communion service breeds elitism. Those who perform the communion service will naturally(human nature) tend to justify their actions by claiming to be superior/holier than their counterparts. The service serves no real purpose as remembrance must be an ongoing process, not just a show of humility once or twice year. IIRC Protestant churches only perform communion service a few times a year, some even practise feet washing ceremony as a show of humility. -
In spite of the long discourse to justify your stand, you did not answer my question:Originally posted by Skibi:It is very sad that the same christians who claim that good deeds are not important to enter the kingdom of heaven champion the cause of meaningless and unnecessary(or even detrimental) ones.
etc etc
Lastly, communion service breeds elitism. Those who perform the communion service will naturally(human nature) tend to justify their actions by claiming to be superior/holier than their counterparts. The service serves no real purpose as remembrance must be an ongoing process, not just a show of humility once or twice year. IIRC Protestant churches only perform communion service a few times a year, some even practise feet washing ceremony as a show of humility.
What I like to know, skibi, is: have you check with any pastors or scholars with all your ludicrious claims. To make it simpler for you, do you have any point of references for all those things you had posted.
To make even easier, is there a church in the world the subscribe to this trend of thoughts? -
U should be catholic then.Originally posted by Skibi:It is very sad that the same christians who claim that good deeds are not important to enter the kingdom of heaven champion the cause of meaningless and unnecessary(or even detrimental) ones.
Jesus' sacrifice does not end with his death. It is but the beginning. Even now he is our high priest in heaven pleading with his Father to forgive our sins. Instead of commemorating a person who has died, isn't it better to rejoice with him when he is alive? Indeed, Jesus is alive in heaven and is suffering together with us.
Ur exegis of scripture is flawed and inconsistent with Christianity. A man-made tradition condemned by Christ. Mind u the Apostles broke bread regularly.Originally posted by Skibi:Communion service is morally wrong.
1. Jesus did not command or request it.
2. It is meant to be a joyful event but christians today make it a sad one. (see Passover feast)
3. Jesus himself abstains from communion in heaven. As his followers we should share the burden together with him.
Communion service calls down unnecessary judgement on ourselfs.
1. Handling the body and blood of Jesus is similar to swearing an oath using God's name. Remembrance can and should be done everyday without the need for invoking holy objects.
Lastly, communion service breeds elitism. Those who perform the communion service will naturally(human nature) tend to justify their actions by claiming to be superior/holier than their counterparts. The service serves no real purpose as remembrance must be an ongoing process, not just a show of humility once or twice year. IIRC Protestant churches only perform communion service a few times a year, some even practise feet washing ceremony as a show of humility. -
Well, maybe you can start by going to church. Reading the bible alone isnt enough as there are tons of ways to interpret things without some guidence from your pastor/ church. One may veer off the correct road.
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Then u are following ur pastor intepretation....very similiar still private intepretation LOL.Originally posted by davidche:Well, maybe you can start by going to church. Reading the bible alone isnt enough as there are tons of ways to interpret things without some guidence from your pastor/ church. One may veer off the correct road.
As a beleiver of Sola Scriptura read Scriptures properly and not selectively. Read the theoliges of ur Reformers.
I as a believer of Sola Verbum Dei ( Word of God alone) will hold fast to the teachings of the Church haha. -
just curious... do you read the Bible in English, or Latin, or Hebrew?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:As a beleiver of Sola Scriptura read Scriptures properly and not selectively. Read the theoliges of ur Reformers.
I as a believer of Sola Verbum Dei ( Word of God alone) will hold fast to the teachings of the Church haha. -
English....do u think im skilled in Latin and hebrew LOLOriginally posted by Chin Eng:just curious... do you read the Bible in English, or Latin, or Hebrew? -
I wouldn't know, unless I asked, right?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:English....do u think im skilled in Latin and hebrew LOL -
But what gave u that idea...i am intrigued???Originally posted by Chin Eng:I wouldn't know, unless I asked, right? -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
Icemoon is correct. One reason why i didn't bring this up is most reputable bible scholars do not use this verse to justify the tradition of communion service as it is very much disputed indeed.
quote:
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Luke 22:19 (NRSV)
19Then he took a loaf of bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, ‘This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.’
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Students of textual criticism know that the above verse is disputed. In fact a standard NRSV bible will alert you in the footnotes. My one reads, "Other ancient authorities lack, in whole or in part, verses 19b-20 (which is given ... in my blood)
The problem is highlighted in the very influentical work of Westcott and Hort (The New Testament in the Original Greek, 1881).
quote:
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http://www.bible-researcher.com/luke12-24.html
Luke 22:19. Omit "which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me" at end of verse. WHmm
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Yea, so the fact is the verse or part of it (unfortunately the most important part of it) is missing from some of our earliest manuscripts.Luke 22:19-20 NIV
And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."
In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.