Church Communion - is it wrong?
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Luke 22:14-18
How can we eat and drink while our master in heaven is fasting?
When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. And he said to them, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God."
After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, "Take this and divide it among you. For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes." -
so what are trying to say?Originally posted by Skibi:How can we eat and drink while our master in heaven is fasting?
that we should eat and drink?
or we should not have communion?
you ought to refrain from taking bits and pieces of scripture and giving them your unique twist. -
Unker Chin Eng is very eng leh... Just that someone read that section from the bible and Unker Chin Eng will automatically rebute.Originally posted by Chin Eng:so what are trying to say?
that we should eat and drink?
or we should not have communion?
you ought to refrain from taking bits and pieces of scripture and giving them your unique twist.
Anyway, if the ts did take the time to read the bible carefully, then the above statements will be a moot point. -
you can correct his thinking if he is wrong.....Originally posted by Chin Eng:so what are trying to say?
that we should eat and drink?
or we should not have communion?
you ought to refrain from taking bits and pieces of scripture and giving them your unique twist. -
I intend to.... the question to you is: do YOU think he is wrong?Originally posted by davidche:you can correct his thinking if he is wrong..... -
Why do we observe Communion?Originally posted by Skibi:How can we eat and drink while our master in heaven is fasting?
We observe Communion because the Lord told us to. We are to obey His commands:
And when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." 1 Corinthians 11:24 (NIV) In observing Communion we are remembering Christ and all that He has done for us in his life, death and resurrection:
And when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." 1 Corinthians 11:24 (NIV) When observing Communion we take time to examine ourselves:
A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 1 Corinthians 11:28 (NIV) In observing Communion we are proclaiming His death until He comes. It is, then, a statement of faith:
For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. 1 Corinthians 11:26 (NIV)
When we observe Communion we show our participation in the body of Christ. His life becomes our life and we become members of each other:
Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf. 1 Corinthians 10:16-17 (NIV)
http://christianity.about.com/od/faqhelpdesk/f/whatiscommunion.htm
skibi, it is pretty obvious that you have lots of time in your hand to search for issues that you intend to make controversial. My suggestion to you is, use this time fruitfully by firstly searching for answers through your church pastors (I assume you still attend church) or visiting reputable and theologically sound websites for the answers that you want.
posting a singular verse is not the way to study the Bible, you should know that! -
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
Why do we observe Communion?
We observe Communion because the Lord told us to. We are to obey His commands:
And when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." 1 Corinthians 11:24 (NIV)
In observing Communion we are remembering Christ and all that He has done for us in his life, death and resurrection:
And when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." 1 Corinthians 11:24 (NIV)
When observing Communion we take time to examine ourselves:
A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 1 Corinthians 11:28 (NIV)
In observing Communion we are proclaiming His death until He comes. It is, then, a statement of faith:
For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. 1 Corinthians 11:26 (NIV)
When we observe Communion we show our participation in the body of Christ. His life becomes our life and we become members of each other:
Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf. 1 Corinthians 10:16-17 (NIV)
http://christianity.about.com/od/faqhelpdesk/f/whatiscommunion.htm
skibi, it is pretty obvious that you have lots of time in your hand to search for issues that you intend to make controversial. My suggestion to you is, use this time fruitfully by firstly searching for answers through your church pastors (I assume you still attend church) or visiting reputable and theologically sound websites for the answers that you want.
posting a singular verse is not the way to study the Bible, you should know that!Matthew 10:24 NIV
Instead of following what the church and man teaches we should follow our master Jesus. By celebrating the communion feasting we are actually violating the sacred covenant which God has pass down to his apostles - that is to abstain from communion until the kingdom of heaven comes. How can we do the opposite of our master who is waiting patiently and abstaining from communion in heaven until we are together with him again?
A student is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. -
1 Corinthians 11:17-22 NIV
The feasting ritual of communion was never Jesus' intention. Look what a mess the early church has become of it.
In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval. When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat, for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk. Don't you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you for this? Certainly not!1 Corinthians 11:27-32 NIV
Notice Paul's stern warning to those who partake in the feasting. Those who practise something which Jesus' never required in the first place are asking for unnecessary judgement by God upon themselves.
Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world.
This is a similar case to making a vow using God's name - totally unnecessary, and invokes the wrath of God if the vow is not carried out not matter how foolish the vow was in the first place.Matthew 5:37 NIV
Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes rom the evil one.Deuteronomy 23:22 NIV
Do not follow this man's example... he sacrifice his daughter as a burnt offering.
But if you refrain from making a vow, you will not be guilty.Judges 11:30-31,34-35 NIV
And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD : "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."
When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, "Oh! My daughter! You have made me miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break." -
allow me to quote you quoting the Bible:
1 Corinthians 11:27-32 NIV
Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world
Paul wrote that whoever eats in an unworthy manner, and not eating of the communion is wrong. Anyone with a reasonable command of the English language will recognise that the focus of this passage IS NOT WHETHER COMMUNION IS TO BE EATEN OR NOT, but, whether ANYONE EATING IT IS WORTHY OR NOT.
You also quote from:
1 Corinthians 11:17-22 NIV
In the following directives I have no praise for you, for your meetings do more harm than good. In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval. When you come together, it is not the Lord's Supper you eat, for as you eat, each of you goes ahead without waiting for anybody else. One remains hungry, another gets drunk. Don't you have homes to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you for this? Certainly not!
why stop at verse 22?
let's go beyond that
11:23-29
For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.
Paul was exhorting that Christians who take the communion should examine himself before taking, and not that taking communion is wrong. -
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
Of course, certain people are excused from the judgement as stated above by Unker Chin Eng. They are the fools and the insane.
11:23-29
For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.
Paul was exhorting that Christians who take the communion should examine himself before taking, and not that taking communion is wrong.[/b] -
Interesting,
The Passage did not stop at verse 18.
Threadstarter delibrately commented on 14-18 yet on his bible he didn't not read what the master commanded? Luke 22:19Then he took a loaf of bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, 'This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.'
This might not be clear in biblical interpretation. - let's do a cross referance in Matthew. Matthew 26:26And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed [it], and brake [it], and gave [it] to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
27And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
So the master said it.
The rest was explained by uncle.
What i'm puzzled is, why did Threadstarter only read from verse 14-18?
And derived to concluding communion is wrong?
Interested in how he reads and interpretation his bible. -
Originally posted by M©+square:
selective reading.... many who choose to give personal interpretations are extremely good at it.
So the master said it.
The rest was explained by uncle.
What i'm puzzled is, why did Threadstarter only read from verse 14-18?
And derived to concluding communion is wrong?
Interested in how he reads and interpretation his bible. [/b]
many of such folks are also good at thinking that they are Bible experts, ignoring the findings and translations of the many many great scholars and philosophers before them.
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Originally posted by M©+square:
Wrong.
The Passage did not stop at verse 18.
Threadstarter delibrately commented on 14-18 yet on his bible he didn't not read what the master commanded?
Now lets look at the scripture once more...Luke 22:14-18 NIV
Jesus declared what this would be the last Passover feast he would celebrate with his disciples. After that he would abstain from such feasting until we are together with him again.
14When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. 15And he said to them, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God."
17After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, "Take this and divide it among you. 18For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."Luke 22:19-23 NIV
Note that the above takes appears only in Luke. It does not appear in the other two sypnotic gospels Matthew and Mark, or John.
19And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me."
20In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. 21But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine on the table. 22The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed, but woe to that man who betrays him." 23They began to question among themselves which of them it might be who would do this.
It is advisible to read the bible as a whole instead of justifying the ritual celebration of communion on half a text.
Now what could Jesus have originally meant? Obviously we must look at the context of the whole scripture and the setting of the last supper. Compare the texts below...Luke 22:15 NIV
Jesus knowing that he is going to die, is simply requesting that his disciples remember the happy times that they spent in the past - the times spent healing the sick, preaching the gospel, and the joy of celebrating previous passover feasts. In this way, knowing that his happy memories will live on in his disciples hearts he can face the cruxifiction bravely.
And he said to them, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.
Luke 22:19 NIV
And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me." -
got some sense indeed leh......
Luke 22:14-18 NIV
Is jesus trying to tell his desiples that this would be the ''last'' supper and that he is going to be killed?? IMO, the bolded highlights the seriousness Jesus wants to put across to his disiples regarding how this supper would be his last meal with them...
14When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. 15And he said to them, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. 16For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God."
Imagine your friend would be killed after your meal with him. Will you treasue the last moments seriously you have with him, since you know that you would never see him again? The atmostphere of the meal would be different.
Thus i feel that what skibi has highlighted is only to say Jesus's emphasis of the seriousness of the meal. this explains, at the same time, why the other disiples did not record those words.. -
Misinterpretation at it's best.
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why do you say so???Originally posted by M©+square:Misinterpretation at it's best. -
ALL of you are mistaken.
Luke 22:19 (NRSV)
Students of textual criticism know that the above verse is disputed. In fact a standard NRSV bible will alert you in the footnotes. My one reads, "Other ancient authorities lack, in whole or in part, verses 19b-20 (which is given ... in my blood)
19Then he took a loaf of bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, ‘This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.’
The problem is highlighted in the very influentical work of Westcott and Hort (The New Testament in the Original Greek, 1881).http://www.bible-researcher.com/luke12-24.html
Yea, so the fact is the verse or part of it (unfortunately the most important part of it) is missing from some of our earliest manuscripts.
Luke 22:19. Omit "which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me" at end of verse. WHmm
Skibi can use this point to this advantage.
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Skibi,Originally posted by Skibi:Note that the above takes appears only in Luke. It does not appear in the other two sypnotic gospels Matthew and Mark, or John.
It is advisible to read the bible as a whole instead of justifying the ritual celebration of communion on half a text.
Now what could Jesus have originally meant? Obviously we must look at the context of the whole scripture and the setting of the last supper. Compare the texts below... .
If u dun agree with what Luke says, mebbe u should not even quote anything from Luke.
And your intepretation from the book of Corinthians is warped.
U/ur theology have a very serious problem. -
When you read The Gospels and Paul Letters as a whole. Does it tell that that Communion is wrong?Originally posted by davidche:why do you say so???
I have to comment on Icemoon's lack of knowledge on Protestant's view of belief. -
It is "Skibism" at its best.Originally posted by M©+square:Misinterpretation at it's best. -
Just because I pointed out some verses are disputed?Originally posted by M©+square:I have to comment on Icemoon's lack of knowledge on Protestant's view of belief.
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Do you understand how Protestant view Communion?Originally posted by Icemoon:Just because I pointed out some verses are disputed? -
Huh .. I did not talk anything about communion recently .. did I?Originally posted by M©+square:Do you understand how Protestant view Communion?
My last theological topic was about tongues .. isn't it not? -
It wasn't because you've brought up a disputable point.Originally posted by Icemoon:Huh .. I did not talk anything about communion recently .. did I?
My last theological topic was about tongues .. isn't it not?
What i'm saying is just, you didn't have a good ground on how protestants view communion. There is nothing to argue about. That's all. -
Luke 22:14-20 (NRSV)
we understand, in order to read a passage, we need to look at the passage as a whole as well as in context.
14 When the hour came, he took his place at the table, and the apostles with him. 15 He said to them, "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer; 16 for I tell you, I will not eat it [a] until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God." 17 Then he took a cup, and after giving thanks he said, "Take this and divide it among yourselves; 18 for I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes." 19 Then he took a loaf of bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me." 20 And he did the same with the cup after supper, saying, "This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.[b]
[a]: Other ancient authorities read [never eat it again]
[b]: Other ancient authorities lack, in whole or in part, verses 19b-20 ([which is given . . . in my blood])
Skibi is correct in that the Lord did says He will not eat it, until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God (in verse 16)
now, lets see what does this 'it' refers to? and if it is fulfilled (and how)?
looking at the preceding verses, we can see that verse 15 and 16 are supose to be read together. So, what is this 'it' in verse 16, from verse 15, we can deduce that He is refering to the Passover feast (not the communion), and have this Passover requirement been fulfilled? Yes, it was fulfilled at the cross, when Christ as the perfect lamb of God was sacrificed on the cross for the atonement of our sins, and He declared "it is finished".
It is in verse 19-20 that the communion is given.
The communion is not really a feast thing, its an act of remembrance to remind ourselves what the Lord had done for us, His Ministries, His Life, His Death, His resurrection.
The only criteria that qualify a person to partake in the communion is that he have to be in Christ.
btw ... Skibi,
I am puzzled, when the Lord says He is not going to take the Passover feast till it is fulfilled in the kingdom of heaven, how did you deduced that he is now fasting in heaven? afterall, not feasting does not means fasting, right?