Can The Holy Trinity Be One God?
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If I'm not wrong, Mary died a virgin right?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Joseph is not jesus father
James is not christ brother...
Are they related biologically?
Which means she doesn't have any children with any man. -
Consider the controversy between Jerome and Helvidius, writing around 380. Helvidius first brought up the notion that the "brothers of the Lord" were children born to Mary and Joseph after JesusÂ’ birth. The great Scripture scholar Jerome at first declined to comment on HelvidiusÂ’ remarks because they were a "novel, wicked, and a daring affront to the faith of the whole world." At length, though, JeromeÂ’s friends convinced him to write a reply, which turned out to be his treatise called On the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Mary. He used not only the scriptural arguments given above, but cited earlier Christian writers, such as Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, and Justin Martyr. Helvidius was unable to come up with a reply, and his theory remained in disrepute and was unheard of until more recent times by Protestants like you.
We know that James the youngerÂ’s mother was named Mary. Look at the descriptions of the women standing beneath the cross: "among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee" (Matt. 27:56); "There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome" (Mark 15:40).
Then look at what John says: "But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his motherÂ’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene" (John 19:25). If we compare these parallel accounts of the scene of the crucifixion, we see that the mother of James and Joseph must be the wife of Clopas. So far, so good.
An argument against this, though, is that James is elsewhere (Matt. 10:3) described as the son of Alphaeus, which would mean this Mary, whoever she was, was the wife of both Clopas and Alphaeus. But Alphaeus and Clopas are the same person, since the Aramaic name for Alphaeus could be rendered in Greek either as Alphaeus or as Clopas. Another possibility is that Alphaeus took a Greek name similar to his Jewish name, the way that Saul took the name Paul.
So itÂ’s probable that James the younger is the son of Mary and Clopas. The second-century historian Hegesippus explains that Clopas was the brother of Joseph, the foster-father of Jesus. James would thus be JosephÂ’s nephew and a cousin of Jesus, who was JosephÂ’s putative son. Joseph and Jesus however did not share any biological relationship sooooo,......
( Source: CatholicAnswers) -
The Christian argument is basket. 'cos they argue both Joseph and Mary are descendants of King David.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Half from the Holy Spirit (divine nature) and half from Mary? How do u think Christ becomes a descedants of King David?
Luke 1:43 - Elizabeth's use of "Mother of my Lord" (in Hebrew, Elizabeth used "Adonai" which means Lord God) is the equivalent of "Holy Mary, Mother of God" which Catholics pray in the Rosary. The formula is simple: Jesus is a divine person, and this person is God. Mary is Jesus' Mother, so Mary is the mother of God (Mary is not just the Mother of Jesus' human nature - mothers are mothers of persons, not natures).
but they forget that in Jewish culture, kingship is always passed down the male line. so if Jesus is not biological child of Joseph, then he cannot be the Messiah.
Erm .. the Trinity is three persons. So Mary is mother of the person Jesus only? -
Jesus is God. Mary is the Mother of God. Its sooooo logical. Church Fathers, Doctors, Protestant fathers...everyone held thier view except frigging satanist.Originally posted by Icemoon:The Christian argument is basket. 'cos they argue both Joseph and Mary are descendants of King David.
but they forget that in Jewish culture, kingship is always passed down the male line. so if Jesus is not biological child of Joseph, then he cannot be the Messiah.
Erm .. the Trinity is three persons. So Mary is mother of the person Jesus only? -
nia.....most people believe that James is his brother....read the bible, book of james, the bunch of words before the chapter starts.Originally posted by Icemoon:If I'm not wrong, Mary died a virgin right?
Which means she doesn't have any children with any man. -
erm .. I think Catholics cannot believe that.Originally posted by davidche:nia.....most people believe that James is his brother....read the bible, book of james, the bunch of words before the chapter starts. -
You want to play logic?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Jesus is God. Mary is the Mother of God. Its sooooo logical. Church Fathers, Doctors, Protestant fathers...everyone held thier view except frigging satanist.
Jesus == God.
Holy Spirit == God.
Mary == Mother of Jesus == Mother of Holy Spirit?
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Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:
Consider the controversy between Jerome and Helvidius, writing around 380. Helvidius first brought up the notion that the "brothers of the Lord" were children born to Mary and Joseph after JesusÂ’ birth. The great Scripture scholar Jerome at first declined to comment on HelvidiusÂ’ remarks because they were a "novel, wicked, and a daring affront to the faith of the whole world." At length, though, JeromeÂ’s friends convinced him to write a reply, which turned out to be his treatise called On the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Mary. He used not only the scriptural arguments given above, but cited earlier Christian writers, such as Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, and Justin Martyr. Helvidius was unable to come up with a reply, and his theory remained in disrepute and was unheard of until more recent times by Protestants like you.
[b]James is not Christ brother
We know that James the youngerÂ’s mother was named Mary. Look at the descriptions of the women standing beneath the cross: "among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee" (Matt. 27:56); "There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome" (Mark 15:40).
Then look at what John says: "But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his motherÂ’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene" (John 19:25). If we compare these parallel accounts of the scene of the crucifixion, we see that the mother of James and Joseph must be the wife of Clopas. So far, so good.
An argument against this, though, is that James is elsewhere (Matt. 10:3) described as the son of Alphaeus, which would mean this Mary, whoever she was, was the wife of both Clopas and Alphaeus. But Alphaeus and Clopas are the same person, since the Aramaic name for Alphaeus could be rendered in Greek either as Alphaeus or as Clopas. Another possibility is that Alphaeus took a Greek name similar to his Jewish name, the way that Saul took the name Paul.
So itÂ’s probable that James the younger is the son of Mary and Clopas. The second-century historian Hegesippus explains that Clopas was the brother of Joseph, the foster-father of Jesus. James would thus be JosephÂ’s nephew and a cousin of Jesus, who was JosephÂ’s putative son. Joseph and Jesus however did not share any biological relationship sooooo,......
( Source: CatholicAnswers)
[/b] -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
source of reference??
[b]
If I'm not wrong, Mary died a virgin right?
[b]
I just had a fight with my mum becos of this
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Mr Pope can give you a lot.Originally posted by davidche:source of reference??
I just had a fight with my mum becos of this
In fact he is giving some now. -
But the equation fails,Originally posted by Icemoon:You want to play logic?
Jesus == God.
Holy Spirit == God.
Mary == Mother of Jesus == Mother of Holy Spirit?
Jesus does not equal to Holy Spirit nor Father.
God in 3 DISTINCT persons.
Jesus == God.
Holy Spirit == God.
Mary == Mother of Jesus =/= Mother of Holy Spirit ( Jesus does not equal to Spirit) but equal to God hence Mother of God
Refusing the accept Mary as Mother of God is neither protestant nor catholic but New-Age thinking. I forsee in 30yrs from now, there will be denominations who will even question the essence of christology. -
Back to thread, is there any means of explaining God's nature beside the Holy Trinity perhaps by Church Fathers or modern day theologicans???
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Mary is Jesus's mother. That cant be denied, but it should be a mere title/name. No extra honour should be given to her. View her as the blessed one, that should be enuf IMO.
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i prefer both side talk, its unbias.Originally posted by Icemoon:Mr Pope can give you a lot.
In fact he is giving some now. -
equation fails is you say one ah?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:But the equation fails,
Jesus does not equal to Holy Spirit nor Father.
God in 3 DISTINCT persons.
Jesus == God.
Holy Spirit == God.
Mary == Mother of Jesus =/= Mother of Holy Spirit ( Jesus does not equal to Spirit) but equal to God hence Mother of God
could it be I have shown you the classical reductio ad absurdum?
If Jesus is God, Holy Spirit also God. So which God is bigger? -
You want Jesus inside sorry don't have.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Back to thread, is there any means of explaining God's nature beside the Holy Trinity perhaps by Church Fathers or modern day theologicans???
You want Holy Family Brey just talked about it.
Yahweh -> Father
Holy Spirit - > Mother
Yeshua - > Son -
Originally posted by Icemoon:The Christian argument is basket. 'cos they argue both Joseph and Mary are descendants of King David.
but they forget that in Jewish culture, kingship is always passed down the male line. so if Jesus is not biological child of Joseph, then he cannot be the Messiah.
Erm .. the Trinity is three persons. So Mary is mother of the person Jesus only?
OK, Shown, Joseph is a descendant of David.
# Matthew 1:20
But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
# Luke 1:27
to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary.
# Luke 2:4
So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David.
now about Mary, there was no mention of whether she is a decendant of David, but she does have a cousin Elizabeth (Mother of John the Baptist), who is a decendant of AaronLuke 1:5
which means, most likely, Mary is also a descendant of Aaron and not David.
[ The Birth of John the Baptist Foretold ] In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron.
Luke 1:35-37
35The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[c] the Son of God. 36Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month. 37For nothing is impossible with God."
Which make sense,
Through the line of Joseph, Jesus inherited the kingship. Then, through the line of Mary, the priesthood. Hence the title, Both King and Priest.
*add this to make it more clear
David from the tribe of Judah
Aaron from the tribe of Levi
*one more to add, in the Gospel of Matthew
Matthew chapter 1:1-17
The Genealogy of Jesus
Jesus was traced as a decendant of David, through the line of Joseph. -
But vince, Joseph did not give any genetic material to Christ unlike Mary. Hence Mary is the mother of Christ while jospeh is the foster father. I feel its because Joseph adopted Christ, he passes on his kingship to him. Like a king passes his title to his adopted son.Originally posted by vince69:which means, most likely, Mary is also a descendant of Aaron and not David.
Which make sense,
Through the line of Joseph, Jesus inherited the kingship. Then, through the line of Mary, the priesthood. Hence the title, Both King and Priest.
*add this to make it more clear
David from the tribe of Judah
Aaron from the tribe of Levi
*one more to add, in the Gospel of Matthew
Matthew chapter 1:1-17
The Genealogy of Jesus
Jesus was traced as a decendant of David, through the line of Joseph. -
But vince, Joseph did not give any genetic material to Christ unlike Mary. Hence Mary is the mother of Christ while jospeh is the foster father. I feel its because Joseph adopted Christ, he passes on his kingship to him. Like a king passes his title to his adopted son.Originally posted by vince69:which means, most likely, Mary is also a descendant of Aaron and not David.
Which make sense,
Through the line of Joseph, Jesus inherited the kingship. Then, through the line of Mary, the priesthood. Hence the title, Both King and Priest.
*add this to make it more clear
David from the tribe of Judah
Aaron from the tribe of Levi
*one more to add, in the Gospel of Matthew
Matthew chapter 1:1-17
The Genealogy of Jesus
Jesus was traced as a decendant of David, through the line of Joseph. -
No such thing. This drastically weakens the argument that Jesus is the prophesied Messiah.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:But vince, Joseph did not give any genetic material to Christ unlike Mary. Hence Mary is the mother of Christ while jospeh is the foster father. I feel its because Joseph adopted Christ, he passes on his kingship to him. Like a king passes his title to his adopted son.
So anti-climax right? The Judah descendant is not really a Judah descendant at all ..
Logically, there is no point tracing the genealogy of Jesus through Joseph also. What's the point? Do you boast about your ancestors when they are not really your ancestors at all? -
based on that flawed equation, does this meansOriginally posted by Pope Nicholas:But vince, Joseph did not give any genetic material to Christ unlike Mary. Hence Mary is the mother of Christ while jospeh is the foster father. I feel its because Joseph adopted Christ, he passes on his kingship to him. Like a king passes his title to his adopted son.
Joseph is foster father of Jesus
Jesus is God
Joseph is foster father of God? personally, this is a totally wrong.
The same I have to say about that equation.
Mary is mother of Jesus
Jesus is God
Mary is mother of God
cause both comes from the same line of logic and argument.
beside of posting just the declaration of church fathers on this subject, can you also provide the basis of how they come out with this doctrine, instead of calling those that question this declaration a heretic and/or satanist? -
bo pian... its Matthew's fault, he go and traced it through Joseph to David...Originally posted by Icemoon:No such thing. This drastically weakens the argument that Jesus is the prophesied Messiah.
So anti-climax right? The Judah descendant is not really a Judah descendant at all ..
Logically, there is no point tracing the genealogy of Jesus through Joseph also. What's the point? Do you boast about your ancestors when they are not really your ancestors at all?
(Matthew 1:1-17) -
Stop discussing about Mary lah. (nothing against Mary, trying to keep to topic)
The full and exact nature of God is incomprehensible. God has only chosen to reveal Himself in three Persons in Christian theology.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Back to thread, is there any means of explaining God's nature beside the Holy Trinity perhaps by Church Fathers or modern day theologicans???
* edit: not sure why the text became gibberish.
add:
These Persons were revealed so that we know the functional relationship we have with God. God the Father, the creator of all things. He who brings order to all things. God the Son, Saviour and Redeemer. The fulfilment of God's will and love. God the Holy Spirit, reveals all Truths and preserves it. He who helps us to receive and express God's will. In all three Persons is but one God. - adapted from Dr. Edward Norman's An Anglican Catechism. -
if there is no proper theology guidance given in this thread. i suggest it to be closed to prevent further blasphemy against the name of the Holy Trinity.
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Actually the gospels give two genealogies of Jesus, in Matthew 1 and Luke 3. Both trace through the line of Joseph.Originally posted by vince69:OK, Shown, Joseph is a descendant of David.
now about Mary, there was no mention of whether she is a decendant of David, but she does have a cousin Elizabeth (Mother of John the Baptist), who is a decendant of Aaron
..
which means, most likely, Mary is also a descendant of Aaron and not David.
You understood Matthew 1 from your latest post. In Luke 3:23Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph,
However the two genealogies are not the same! In order to preserve the inerrancy of the gospels, christians reason one must be the genealogy of Mary. You can do some research on this.
the son of Heli, 24the son of Matthat,
the son of Levi, the son of Melki,
the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph,