Who really founded the Catholic Church?
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Notice everyone there is an Apostles. Not every beleiver was there...onli Apostles. The gift of truth was given to the Apostles and whoever inhertied thier office.Originally posted by vince69:I believe in the unity of the Scripture, ie; Scripture interpreting the Scripture (where one place is seems as complex, one can normally find the explaination in another part of the Scripture)
I believe that every believer can interpret the Scripture (though some can do it better/more detail than others). This does not negate the need for pastors/teachers ...etc and their teaching, but it does provide a platform for the believers to be able to spot out errant teachings (when it occurs), instead of following blindly.
I believed that Christ had promised the Holy Spirit to all believers both as our Counselor and also as a seal of His ownership on us (as recorded in the Scripture), to think otherwise is to call him a liar.
John 14:25-26
"All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
If what u say is true, explain to me....every 36 000 denom claim to possese the Spirit. U and ur brethen continue to justify the splitting of the Body of Christ with ur doctrine of the SPirit Told Me so. How have Satan succeeded...
Our lord calls for One Fold One Sheperd ( John 10:16). This means there is onli ONE truth, ONE doctrine, ONE church. Not 36 000 Truth catered for each denom. How can the spirit guide this:
Catholics beleive the papacy is needed, prots do not
Othodox beleive in Real Presence, baptist do not
Lutherans believe in Sola Fide, Bretherens do not
Anglicans believe in institution but Pentecostals do not
Catholics believe Mary is the Mother of God but Nestorians beleive Mary is the Mother of Christ.
How can the Spirit tell everyone a different truth? I am left to contend that the Spirit does not guide the masses but onli his Church.
It is sad to see the Catholic Church stands alone in its call against contraception while majority of Protestant Churches have deserted her....the Spirit naturally do not guide them as in the 1930s, those churches taught contraception was evil. How Satan have succeeded.... -
HUH? Your comparison is very strange.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Our lord calls for One Fold One Sheperd ( John 10:16). This means there is onli ONE truth, ONE doctrine, ONE church. Not 36 000 Truth catered for each denom. How can the spirit guide this:
Catholics beleive the papacy is needed, prots do not
Othodox beleive in Real Presence, baptist do not
Lutherans believe in Sola Fide, Bretherens do not
Anglicans believe in institution but Pentecostals do not
Catholics believe Mary is the Mother of God but Nestorians beleive Mary is the Mother of Christ.
You bring in Catholics for what? You mean there is a chance Catholics might be wrong?
And the last point is hiliarious. Nestorians are heretical and nothing to do with Prots. -
I use the words Believe (the last one is actually believe, not believed (my mistake)) as a response to the Pope's question on what I believe in and its meant to be my personal belief/conviction.Originally posted by Icemoon:How come you believe, believe and believed (past tense even!) sounds so much like a creed?
and now my turn to hantum you .. who were the audience in John 14:25-26?
John 14 - Audience = The Disciples
Acts 2 - Holy Spirit to all believers (most likely Jews)
Acts 4 - Holy Spirit to all believers (Gentiles)
Allow me to quote the words of Peter
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ (note: Acts 2 is during the pentacost, ie. Spiritual baptism) = One who belong to Christ/follower of Jesus Christ = Christian (as defined at Antioch,Acts 11:26), and you will received the gift of the Holy Spirit. -
In Acts 2 and 4 got say the Holy Spirit will guide?Originally posted by vince69:John 14 - Audience = The Disciples
Acts 2 - Holy Spirit to all believers (most likely Jews)
Acts 4 - Holy Spirit to all believers (Gentiles)
Allow me to quote the words of Peter
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ (note: Acts 2 is during the pentacost, ie. Spiritual baptism) = One who belong to Christ/follower of Jesus Christ = Christian (as defined at Antioch,Acts 11:26), and you will received the gift of the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit got so many roles, including giving the believer the gift of prophecy, tongues etc. -
And the Apostle Peter claims that ALL who believed, repented and is baptised will receive the gift which is the Holy Spirit.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Notice everyone there is an Apostles. Not every beleiver was there...onli Apostles. The gift of truth was given to the Apostles and whoever inhertied thier office.
Read also Acts 2 and Acts 4, the records shows that the Holy Spirit decends on all who believed and not just the Apostles. -
Acts 2 and 4 shows the Holy Spirit physically descending on the believers (not just the gift)Originally posted by Icemoon:In Acts 2 and 4 got say the Holy Spirit will guide?
The Holy Spirit got so many roles, including giving the believer the gift of prophecy, tongues etc.
John 14 says the Holy Spirit is given as a counselor -
Then I challenge you to explain what exactly is the gift of the Holy Spirit.Originally posted by vince69:And the Apostle Peter claims that ALL who believed, repented and is baptised will receive the gift which is the Holy Spirit.
Read also Acts 2 and Acts 4, the records shows that the Holy Spirit decends on all who believed and not just the Apostles. -
so you put two and two together?Originally posted by vince69:Acts 2 and 4 shows the Holy Spirit physically descending on the believers (not just the gift)
John 14 says the Holy Spirit is given as a counselor
The gift can be taken to mean a new life in Christ.
The gift of correct interpretation can be bo bao you know? -
Icey,,, Holy Spirit as the counselor is the role of the Holy Spirit not the gift of the Holy Spirit which is also different from the fruits of the Holy Spirit.Originally posted by Icemoon:Then I challenge you to explain what exactly is the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Role of The Holy Spirit = Counselor, seal of God's ownership, a gurantee to the things to come, comforter, teacher ...etc
Gift of the Holy Spirit = tongues, prophecy, administration, helps, healing ...etc
Fruits of the Holy Spirit = love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control ..etc -
Ok.Originally posted by vince69:Icey,,, Holy Spirit as the counselor is the role of the Holy Spirit not the gift of the Holy Spirit which is also different from the fruits of the Holy Spirit.
Role of The Holy Spirit = Counselor, seal of God's ownership, a gurantee to the things to come, comforter, teacher ...etc
Gift of the Holy Spirit = tongues, prophecy, administration, helps, healing ...etc
Fruits of the Holy Spirit = love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control ..etc
Mr Pope .. do you get your answer now?
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Do you know icemoon's stance on this issue?Originally posted by vince69:Icey,,, Holy Spirit as the counselor is the role of the Holy Spirit not the gift of the Holy Spirit which is also different from the fruits of the Holy Spirit.
Role of The Holy Spirit = Counselor, seal of God's ownership, a gurantee to the things to come, comforter, teacher ...etc
Gift of the Holy Spirit = tongues, prophecy, administration, helps, healing ...etc
Fruits of the Holy Spirit = love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control ..etc -
Originally posted by M©+square:Do you know icemoon's stance on this issue? I will let him decide whether he want to share it here or not.
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I'm not sure if he have any.Originally posted by vince69: I will let him decide whether he want to share it here or not.
And Nic pope is 
......i reject his arguements. -
erm .. I have no stance. (this isn't even 'Jewish' stuffs)
I'm just not very convinced, from Scripture, that Jesus' promise the apostles extend to all believes who have the Holy Spirit.
Note Mr Pope tackled the problem from Tradition, I tackle the problem from Scripture.
Can Mc2 help to clarify? -
I lazy....Originally posted by Icemoon:erm .. I have no stance. (this isn't even 'Jewish' stuffs)
I'm just not very convinced, from Scripture, that Jesus' promise the apostles extend to all believes who have the Holy Spirit.
Note Mr Pope tackled the problem from Tradition, I tackle the problem from Scripture.
Can Mc2 help to clarify?
get a christian to clarify.
Laoda!!!! *me points at Laoda99* -
His arguments sometimes qiang ci duo li.Originally posted by M©+square:And Nic pope is ......i reject his arguements.
and a bit fanatical I feel .. -
Reformed Theology like never talk much about Pneumatology.Originally posted by M©+square:I lazy....
get a christian to clarify.
Laoda!!!! *me points at Laoda99*
This one must get charismatics to explain.
Go for reformed when we have question about salvation. -
Icey, here are the reference verses you may be interested in (pls read them in context and as a whole, cause some of them I cannot quote whole passage here, too long)Originally posted by Icemoon:erm .. I have no stance. (this isn't even 'Jewish' stuffs)
I'm just not very convinced, from Scripture, that Jesus' promise the apostles extend to all believes who have the Holy Spirit.
Note Mr Pope tackled the problem from Tradition, I tackle the problem from Scripture.
Can Mc2 help to clarify?
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 8:14-17
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into[c] the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
Acts 5:32
We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."
Romans 5:5
And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
Galatians 4:6
Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."
Roman 8:15-16
For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship.[a] And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. -
thanks.
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There are many gift of the holy spirit. The gift of truth was onli given the Apostles.Originally posted by vince69:
If every beleiver has it, why do we differ in our biblical intepretation? The spirit has only ONE truth not many.
My examples protrays that if vince arguments are true, why do we differ doctrinally. Nestoricans are as Christians as Protestants. Generally by Vince arguments, the Nestorians too would have came to the conclusion that Jesus was God and Man through the Spirit. While the Spirit guided the catholics into beleiving Christ was God with divine and human nature. How can the Spirit guide both people to 2 different conclusion. That was an example to illustrate how historical examples prove believers do not possese the gifts.
Did Christ tell everyone to feed his flock or only Peter?
Did Moses tell his people to read thier own Scriptre...no, they had a council to decide. Icemoon, there is something about the Cair of Moses rite? Similiarly in Christian world, there is a Chair of Peter.
Though 650 mil Protestants prefer to act as his own Pope. Protestanism - everyone is infallible in their intepretation of Scripture because they got the Spirit.
Catholicism - 1 Pope wif a council of Bishops
Protestanitsm - 650 mil Super-Popes (they always in ex-cathedra) -
LOL if u accepted it, u will return back to the Church.Originally posted by M©+square:I'm not sure if he have any.
And Nic pope is ......i reject his arguements. -
aiya .. all dun have the truth lah.
Only Yeshua has the Truth.
Agree? -
We are talking about the presence and role of the Holy Spirit in the lives of the believers in general.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:There are many gift of the holy spirit. The gift of truth was onli given the Apostles.
If every beleiver has it, why do we differ in our biblical intepretation? The spirit has only ONE truth not many.
My examples protrays that if vince arguments are true, why do we differ doctrinally. Nestoricans are as Christians as Protestants. Generally by Vince arguments, the Nestorians too would have came to the conclusion that Jesus was God and Man through the Spirit. While the Spirit guided the catholics into beleiving Christ was God with divine and human nature. How can the Spirit guide both people to 2 different conclusion. That was an example to illustrate how historical examples prove believers do not possese the gifts.
Did Christ tell everyone to feed his flock or only Peter?
Also, like you said, there are many gifts, teaching is one, administration, helps ....etc are also (btw, while the teacher can teach, a student can also study the Bible)
you are correct to say that not ALL are called to teach (I know I am not), nor all called to be Apostles, prophets, missionaries, pastors ...etc, but these gifts are given nevertheless to the church just like the Body is made up from different parts. All these gifts comes together to edify, to build up ...etc the church summing up to the 'head' which is Christ.
1 Corinthians 12 :4-6 (read the entire chapter for better understanding)
4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. -
Yeshua is the Truth.Originally posted by Icemoon:aiya .. all dun have the truth lah.
Only Yeshua has the Truth.
Agree?
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. -
Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." John 20:21Originally posted by Icemoon:aiya .. all dun have the truth lah.
Only Yeshua has the Truth.
Agree?
he who receives you, receives Me, and he who rejects you, rejects Me and the One who sent Me." Mat 10
John 13:20 - Jesus says, "he who receives anyone who I send, receives Me." He who receives the apostles, receives Christ Himself. He who rejects the apostles and their successors, rejects Christ.
Christ transfer the Father Authority onto himself to his Apostles. So I agree wif u and that it has been transfered.