Who really founded the Catholic Church?
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Catholic=universalOriginally posted by Pope Nicholas:The universal catholic church LOL. Those churches are merely areas whwere churches are built....like church in rome, church in sigapore etc. But all part of the holy Apostolic Catholic Church.
Not Roman Catholic. -
yah lor .. his argument so stale. wonder he got really do his research or not.Originally posted by laoda99:Catholic=universal
Not Roman Catholic. -
he is not my cloneOriginally posted by Icemoon:yah lor .. his argument so stale. wonder he got really do his research or not.
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of course not.Originally posted by davidche:he is not my clone
he is around your age, but english is better. -
honestly and seriously speaking, he has substance and ink, but not good enuf for you ba....Originally posted by Icemoon:of course not.
he is around your age, but english is better. 
as for me, i have no ink and substance, cannot be compared.
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he is ok bah, if he don't cut and paste every time, I'd rate him even higher.Originally posted by davidche:honestly and seriously speaking, he has substance and ink, but not good enuf for you ba....
as for me, i have no ink and substance, cannot be compared.
Don't be dishearted. Ink and substance can be cultivated one. Like I always stress, read the correct stuffs. Don't waste time on certain books. -
Who founded the Catholic Church? St Peter?
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=212821 -
Why do Catholics believe that Peter the Apostle was the first Pope, when the word "Pope" does not even appear in Catholics Bibles? Just where does the Pope get his authority to rule over the Catholic Church?
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=92087 -
But Christ did not desert the Church, and it had nothing to do with "Apostolic Succession", God sent the Holy Spirit after Christ (as promised). The Holy Spirit as the Counselor to all the disciples (ie. not just Peter)Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Opps verse 17:
If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. 14 If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.
Apostolic Succession wasnt invented to justify the papacy. It had existed long ago and makes perfect sense. Why would Christ grant such powers to the Apostles alone and then desert the Church when he promised to be with it till teh end. Most importantly, there is numerical bible verses in support....just go to Scripture Catholic. View the Church fathers who support Apostolic Sucession.
John 14:25-26
"All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
Furthermore, the Holy Spirit also decends on all the believers during the Pentacost (Acts 2) and when in Conelius' house (Acts 10). -
I have one question that I would love to heard it from our Roman Catholic friends
what is the meaning of the title "Pope" ?
(I mean what does it represent?) -
Pope means Papa in Italian which means FATHER - BiblicalOriginally posted by vince69:I have one question that I would love to heard it from our Roman Catholic friends
what is the meaning of the title "Pope" ?
(I mean what does it represent?)
Compare the two biblicl texts to understand the Papacy better.
"And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will call My servant Eliakim the son of Helcias, and I will clothe him with thy Robe, and I will strengthen him with thy Sash, and will give thy Power into his hand; and he shall be as a FATHER to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. And I will lay the KEY of the House of David upon his shoulder; and he shall open and none shall shut; and he shall shut and none shall open. And I will fasten him as a peg in a Sure Place, and he shall be for a Throne of glory to the house of his Father. And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his Fathers house, diverse kinds of vessels, every little vessel, from the vessels of cups even to every instrument of music." Isaiah 22:20-24
"And I say to thee, thou art Peter, and upon this Rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give THEE the KEYS of the Kingdom of Heaven; and whatever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven." Matt 16:18-19
Notice similarites? This is just the very few times when KEYS are mentioned and the onli times when KEYS and the POwers of binding and loosing is mentioned.
So what do we have here? We have an OFFICE, a SASH, a ROBE, a THRONE, a KEY, a PEG, and a SURE PLACE.
The House of David is the Davidic Kingdom. David is a figure of Christ
The office mentioned in OT is like a prime minister role to rule Isreal when there is no King. Elikiam ruled Israel. Similiarly in NT, Christ institued a prime minister role for Peter by giving him the KEYS. The KEYS also represent dynastic Sucession as Elikiam succeeded Shebna in Isaiah 22:20. Similiarly this new Office Christ institued must have successors and they are our modern day popes. This was the case in the Old Covenant kingdom, and it is the case in the New Covenant kingdom which fulfills the Old Covenant. Christ our king is now in heaven is not wif us physically hence he gives us a prime minister to guide us. This is further strengthened when he ordered Peter to feed his flocks. In greek feed means to RULE. He also tells him to strenghten the fellow APOSTLES.
Eliakim is called “father” or “papa/pope” of God's people. This is why Catholics call the leader of the Church "Pope." The Pope is the father of God's people, the chief steward of the earthly kingdom and Christ's representative on earth.
Interesting bible verses:
"As an olive tree budding forth, and a cypress tree rearing itself on high, when he put on the ROBE of Glory, and was clothed with the perfection of POWER. When he went up to the Holy Altar, he honored the vesture of Holiness. And when he took the portions out of the hands of the priests, he himself stood by the Altar. And about him was the ring of his brethren: and as the cedar planted in mount Libanus, and as branches of palm trees, they stood round about him, and all the sons of Aaron in their glory. And the Oblation of the Lord (the Holy Eucharist) was in their hands before all the Congregation (Church) of Israel. And finishing his service on the Altar, to honor the offering of the Most High King, he stretched forth his hand to make a libation, and offered the Blood of the grape (wine transformed into the Blood of Christ)." Sir 50:11-16
"Now therefore we make thee this day High Priest (Vicar of Christ) of thy nation, and that thou be called the King's friend (and he sent them a Purple ROBE, and a CROWN OF GOLD (Miter)), and that thou be of one mind with us in our affairs, and keep friendship with us." 1Macc 10:20
The THRONE is the Chair (Seat) of Saint Peter from which the Vicar of Christ prolcaims to the whole world, infallilbe statements on faith and morals. Moses, the Leader of GOD's chosen people had a Seat of Authority.
"The Scribes and the Pharisees have sat on the Chair of Moses." Matt 23:2
"This Propitiatory (Mercy Seat) you shall then place on top of the Ark. In the Ark itself you are to put the Commandments which I will give you. There I will meet you and there, from above the Propitiatory, between the two cherubim on the Ark of the Commandments, I will tell you all of the commands that I wish you to give the Israelites (Ex-Cathedra)." Ex 25:20-22
The next day Moses sat in judgment for the people, who waited about him from morning until evening. When his father-in-law saw all that he was doing for the people, he inquired, "What sort of thing is this that you are doing for the people? Why do you sit alone while all the people have to stand about you from morning till evening?" Moses answered his father-in-law, "The people come to me to consult God. Whenever they have a disagreement, they come to me to have me settle the matter between them and make known to them God's decisions and regulations." (NT papal authority of supremacy) "You are not acting wisely," his father-in-law replied. "You will surely wear yourself out, and not only yourself but also these people with you. The task is too heavy for you; you cannot do it alone. Now, listen to me, and I will give you some advice, that God may be with you. Act as the people's representative before God, bringing to him whatever they have to say. Enlighten them in regard to the decisions and regulations, showing them how they are to live and what they are to do. But you should also look among all the people for able and God-fearing men, trustworthy men who hate dishonest gain, and set them as officers over groups of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties, and of tens. Let these men render decisions for the people in all ordinary cases. More important cases they should refer to you, (PAPAL AUTHORITY. ROME HAS SPOKEN, THE ISSUE IS SETTLED) but all the lesser cases they can settle themselves. Thus, your burden will be lightened, since they will bear it with you. If you do this, when God gives you orders you will be able to stand the strain, and all these people will go home satisfied."
Moses followed the advice of his father-in-law and did all that he had suggested. He picked out able men from all Israel and put them in charge of the people as officers over groups of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties, and of tens (CARDINALS, ARCHBISHOPS, AND BISHOPS, AS WE HAVE IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TODAY). They rendered decisions for the people in all ordinary cases. The more difficult cases they referred to Moses, but all the lesser cases they settled themselves.
Exodus: 18:13-26
I hope this few verses can convince u in the biblical nature of the papacy. Rememebr every organization has the Power of Administration. If a Democracy has a Parliamemt, an elected President, if a company has a CEO, board of directors and stakeholders....what more of a 2000yr old institution wif a Magisteruim (filled with her Bishops) and the Papacy all filled in the Spirit of Truth? Is that wrong? -
So u believe every believer is capable in intepretating Scripture and negelecting the papacy?Originally posted by vince69:But Christ did not desert the Church, and it had nothing to do with "Apostolic Succession", God sent the Holy Spirit after Christ (as promised). The Holy Spirit as the Counselor to all the disciples (ie. not just Peter)
John 14:25-26
"All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
Furthermore, the Holy Spirit also decends on all the believers during the Pentacost (Acts 2) and when in Conelius' house (Acts 10). -
I thought this is a no brainer.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:So u believe every believer is capable in intepretating Scripture and negelecting the papacy?
Of course every believer is capable, just that you might interpret wrongly only. -
weird .. elsewhere Mr Pope says the OT and the practices very Jewish.
and now he is using OT practices to justify the papacy.
talk about hypocrisy heh?
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LOL.Originally posted by laoda99:Catholic=universal
Not Roman Catholic.
1) Roman Catholic refers to Latin Rite Catholics. The Church has never called itself the RCC. The RCC term was used by Anglicans to differentiate themseves. Since the CC always call itself that, u must accept i. I call protestantr churches by their denom name not a synagogues of heresy.
2) The Catholic Church has always been regarded as an institutionlised Church. To disagree is to call every Church father, some of whom were students of the Apostles...LIARS. The invisble church theory wa formed after the Reformation.
"See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).
The Catholic Church had bishops whose orders are to be carried out. How can these be an invisble church?
"[A]ll the people wondered that there should be such a difference between the unbelievers and the elect, of whom this most admirable Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher, and bishop of the Catholic Church which is in Smyrna. For every word that went out of his mouth either has been or shall yet be accomplished." Martyrdom of Polycarp, 16:2 (A.D. 155).
Polycarp was a student of Apostle John and he knew Apostolic teachings. He is part of the Catholic Church and not other heretical movement cos the CC is the apostles Church.
“…to be in honour however with the Catholic Church for the ordering of ecclesiastical discipline...one to the Laodicenes, another to the Alexandrians, both forged in Paul's name to suit the heresy of Marcion, and several others, which cannot be received into the Catholic Church; for it is not fitting that gall be mixed with honey. The Epistle of Jude no doubt, and the couple bearing the name of John, are accepted by the Catholic Church...But of Arsinous, called also Valentinus, or of Militiades we receive nothing at all.” The fragment of Muratori (A.D. 177).
The CC decided which books were inspired and heretical. How can this be an invisble Church?
"[N]or does it consist in this, that he should again falsely imagine, as being above this [fancied being], a Pleroma at one time supposed to contain thirty, and at another time an innumerable tribe of Aeons, as these teachers who are destitute of truly divine wisdom maintain; while the Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 1:10,3 (A.D. 180).
The CC possesed ONE faith and DOctrines. I cannot fanthom 36 000
denominations each contradicting the other being part of this...Catholic Church whom is supposed to be part of thie ONE faith.
“For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago,--in the reign of Antoninus for the most part,--and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled.” Tertullian, On the Prescription Against Heretics, 22,30 (A.D. 200).
The CC had rulers and dynastic cussesion and the pwoer to excommunicate those who disobey her.
“Inasmuch, I repeat, as this is the case, we believe also in the Holy Church, [intending thereby] assuredly the Catholic. For both heretics and schismatics style their congregations churches. But heretics, in holding false opinions regarding God, do injury to the faith itself; while schismatics, on the other hand, in wicked separations break off from brotherly charity, although they may believe just what we believe. Wherefore neither do the heretics belong to the Catholic Church, which loves God; nor do the schismatics form a part of the same.” Augustine, On Faith and Creed, 10:21 (A.D. 393).
Augustine feels heretics or protestants who formed thier own congregational churches are not part of the Catholic Church. -
OT is part of the Bible. I said christian practice supercedes judasitic. The OT shows the powers of the KEYS. Deal wif issue and halt ad honiem attacks.Originally posted by Icemoon:weird .. elsewhere Mr Pope says the OT and the practices very Jewish.
and now he is using OT practices to justify the papacy.
talk about hypocrisy heh? -
That kinda contradicts his spirit will guide all beleivers in truth.Originally posted by Icemoon:I thought this is a no brainer.
Of course every believer is capable, just that you might interpret wrongly only.
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Supercedes?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:OT is part of the Bible. I said christian practice supercedes judasitic. The OT shows the powers of the KEYS. Deal wif issue and halt ad honiem attacks.
You sure or not? God said in the Torah His commandments are eternal. You don't need me to quote supporting verses, do you? -
it remains to be seen when his spirit is guiding and when he is not.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:That kinda contradicts his spirit will guide all beleivers in truth.
did his spirit guide the popes to excom each another? -
When did Popes excom each other? Kinda impossible since there can onli be one POpe alive.Originally posted by Icemoon:it remains to be seen when his spirit is guiding and when he is not.
did his spirit guide the popes to excom each another? -
LOL....PRACTOCES not OT. Thats why we dont circumsise, why we can eat pork, why we ahve NT etc etc. OT is as important as NT. If im not mistaken though our OT contains the DC books.Originally posted by Icemoon:Supercedes?
You sure or not? God said in the Torah His commandments are eternal. You don't need me to quote supporting verses, do you? -
I believe in the unity of the Scripture, ie; Scripture interpreting the Scripture (where one place is seems as complex, one can normally find the explaination in another part of the Scripture)Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:So u believe every believer is capable in intepretating Scripture and negelecting the papacy?
I believe that every believer can interpret the Scripture (though some can do it better/more detail than others). This does not negate the need for pastors/teachers ...etc and their teaching, but it does provide a platform for the believers to be able to spot out errant teachings (when it occurs), instead of following blindly.
I believed that Christ had promised the Holy Spirit to all believers both as our Counselor and also as a seal of His ownership on us (as recorded in the Scripture), to think otherwise is to call him a liar.
John 14:25-26
"All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. -
what are you talking about?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:LOL....PRACTOCES not OT. Thats why we dont circumsise, why we can eat pork, why we ahve NT etc etc. OT is as important as NT. If im not mistaken though our OT contains the DC books. -
Actually I've taken the liberty to use the word 'excom'. I'm not sure whether they did excom each another but they sure weren't buddies.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:When did Popes excom each other? Kinda impossible since there can onli be one POpe alive.
Are you sure there can only be one pope alive?
In the first place, how were popes elected? The way the 'mandate' is given is a very human process. -
How come you believe, believe and believed (past tense even!) sounds so much like a creed?Originally posted by vince69:I believe in the unity of the Scripture, ie; Scripture interpreting the Scripture (where one place is seems as complex, one can normally find the explaination in another part of the Scripture)
I believe that every believer can interpret the Scripture (though some can do it better/more detail than others). This does not negate the need for pastors/teachers ...etc and their teaching, but it does provide a platform for the believers to be able to spot out errant teachings (when it occurs), instead of following blindly.
I believed that Christ had promised the Holy Spirit to all believers both as our Counselor and also as a seal of His ownership on us (as recorded in the Scripture), to think otherwise is to call him a liar.
John 14:25-26
"All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
and now my turn to hantum you .. who were the audience in John 14:25-26?