Salvation by faith not works - a half truth
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thats fine with me... since you neither talk about the Law of Moses nor the words of the Prophets but in your discussion, you seek to nullify both.Originally posted by Skibi:I see no point in discussing religion with people who selectively reads the bible either. Although your mind seems to be made up, please heed the following warning by Jesus:
If you do not listen to what the bible says, no matter how texts I quote and prove, you will still refuse to listen. -
The death of Jesus did away with the need to sacrifice a lamb as burnt offering to absolve sins. Thus everyone past/present/and future who did not follow this command will have a chance to be saved - that is all. How we make use of this chance will depend on our actions. Will we use this chance given by God to cultivate a holy character and do good deeds?
God is not a petty or selfish god. As long as a person's character and deeds are deemed to be suitable for heaven there he will go. It doesn't matter if the person has never even heard of Jesus before. Or if he rejects Jesus in his lifetime due to the actions of hypocritical and bigoted christians.
i.e in the Old Testament as the Jews didn't do their job properly lots of people didn't get to hear about God. -
It is very funny....i have read the thread over again and it seems that at page 5 you deny what the Apostle Paul has said. But going back to page 2 u were quoting from Paul and using his words to support your stand!!!Originally posted by Skibi:I see no point in discussing religion with people who selectively reads the bible either. Although your mind seems to be made up, please heed the following warning by Jesus:
If you do not listen to what the bible says, no matter how texts I quote and prove, you will still refuse to listen.
Are you very confused? Who's selectively reading the bible? Definitely it's U.
And your theology abt Christ's sacrifice is something of your own, nothing which we have heard b4. -
You do know you are moving further and further away.... now you are saying Jesus does not matter....Originally posted by Skibi:The death of Jesus did away with the need to sacrifice a lamb as burnt offering to absolve sins. Thus everyone past/present/and future who did not follow this command will have a chance to be saved - that is all. How we make use of this chance will depend on our actions. Will we use this chance given by God to cultivate a holy character and do good deeds?
God is not a petty or selfish god. As long as a person's character and deeds are deemed to be suitable for heaven there he will go. It doesn't matter if the person has never even heard of Jesus before. Or if he rejects Jesus in his lifetime due to the actions of hypocritical and bigoted christians.
God is not petty or selfish? of course
God is also righteous and just.
There is only once other time I heard this teaching on this "a person's character and deeds are deemed to be suitable for heaven there he will go"
that is only if this person's character and deeds is able to produce a character and a righteousness that is equal if not exceed that of Jesus.
I must ask you again, to state your claim as in what type of teaching are you subscribing here, for you definitely do not sound like a christian. Nothing personal against you, what I am trying to do here is to point out that what you are saying is not christian teaching so as not to cause confusion to other readers. -
Hi Skibi,Originally posted by Skibi:The death of Jesus did away with the need to sacrifice a lamb as burnt offering to absolve sins. Thus everyone past/present/and future who did not follow this command will have a chance to be saved - that is all. How we make use of this chance will depend on our actions. Will we use this chance given by God to cultivate a holy character and do good deeds?
God is not a petty or selfish god. As long as a person's character and deeds are deemed to be suitable for heaven there he will go. It doesn't matter if the person has never even heard of Jesus before. Or if he rejects Jesus in his lifetime due to the actions of hypocritical and bigoted christians.
i.e in the Old Testament as the Jews didn't do their job properly lots of people didn't get to hear about God.
lets clarify a few things...
1. Yeshua is the only way to our reconciliation with Yahweh.
2. Only those who follow the commandments of Yahweh like Yeshua did will inherit eternal life. This after salvation by faith through grace. The grace being the opportunity to repent and be saved.
3. Works do not save but are the evidence of our salvation.
4. If you reject the salvation of Yeshua, then so also will Yahweh reject you.
5. Yahweh is a jealous God, He is a God of righteousness and order.
6. Yahweh has said through Yeshua, NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH YESHUA.
7. In the Holy Scriptures or what you call the OT, salvation was never for the world, it was only for the nation of Israel, and the only way to get saved then was to be part of Israel. This still has not changed today. -
Matthew 9:4-5 NIV
It is definitely easier to profess to have faith than to walk the talk. But beware...
Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'?Matthew 7:14 NIV
It understandable that many christians prefer to easy way out and choose to believe in justification by faith while de-emphasizing the need for works. Those who refuse to get out of their comfort-zone will have no place in heaven.
But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. -
You still have not answer my question to you...Originally posted by Skibi:It understandable that many christians prefer to easy way out and choose to believe in justification by faith while de-emphasizing the need for works. Those who refuse to get out of their comfort-zone will have no place in heaven.
Again... We are not de-emphasizing the need for works, we are putting it in its rightful place and not over-emphasizing the need for work to the level it over ride the need for Christ.
justification by faith in Christ, our works is but one of the results from this faith, a reflection of what we believe in and not a definition of who we are. -
Unker Vince,Originally posted by vince69:You still have not answer my question to you...
Again... We are not de-emphasizing the need for works, we are putting it in its rightful place and not over-emphasizing the need for work to the level it over ride the need for Christ.
justification by faith in Christ, our works is but one of the results from this faith, a reflection of what we believe in and not a definition of who we are.
He will not reply one. This type is hit and run one.......hit when u dun notice and run when u ask him further...
He was quoting from Paul just now, but now he deny what Paul has said.
And first he said Christ is important, after that he said Christ does not matter.
With such inconsistency, he is using quotations only for his own ends. -
Hebrews 11:6 (New International Version)Originally posted by Skibi:Note that the Bible does not command us to have faith. Faith is a by-product of loving God. Faith by itself without true love for God and deeds to show is worthless.
6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. -
and what do you understand by having this kind of faith??Originally posted by laoda99:Hebrews 11:6 (New International Version)
6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. -
I very curious mah ... ok lah... you and Brey continue here, I go sleep, weather now very good for sleeping ... be nice to each other, ok?Originally posted by laoda99:Unker Vince,
He will not reply one. This type is hit and run one.......hit when u dun notice and run when u ask him further...
He was quoting from Paul just now, but now he deny what Paul has said.
And first he said Christ is important, after that he said Christ does not matter.
With such inconsistency, he is using quotations only for his own ends.
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In fact, christians are guilty of repeating what caused the Jews to be hated in the first place.
In Old Testament, only those that offered lamb as burnt offering will have their sins absolved. It does not matter if the person is a Jew or not. i.e Enoch was not a Jew. However the Jews twisted God's words and claimed that only Jews could be saved. Thus insinuating that one must become a Jew to be assured of salvation - the is far from the truth. In addition the Jews jealously hoarded this knowledge on how to be saved in direct opposition of God's wishes that they be an example for all nations to follow.
Christians today believe that one must become a christian to be saved. They are repeating the failures and bigotry of the Jewish nation which is what Lucifer wants. -
what leow eh .. now is like romance of the three kingdoms liddat.
brey, skibi, vince/laoda.
I think I am Meng Huo.
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Even I do not agree with you.Originally posted by Skibi:In fact, christians are guilty of repeating what caused the Jews to be hated in the first place.
In Old Testament, only those that offered lamb as burnt offering will have their sins absolved. It does not matter if the person is a Jew or not. i.e Enoch was not a Jew. However the Jews twisted God's words and claimed that only Jews could be saved. Thus insinuating that one must become a Jew to be assured of salvation - the is far from the truth. In addition the Jews jealously hoarded this knowledge on how to be saved in direct opposition of God's wishes that they be an example for all nations to follow.
Christians today believe that one must become a christian to be saved. They are repeating the failures and bigotry of the Jewish nation which is what Lucifer wants.
God desires mercy and not sacrifice. Furthermore offerings or sacrifice can only atone for the trivial kind of sins. From the horse's mouth, in Numbers 15 (NRSV):27 An individual who sins unintentionally shall present a female goat a year old for a sin-offering. 28And the priest shall make atonement before the Lord for the one who commits an error, when it is unintentional, to make atonement for the person, who then shall be forgiven. 29For both the native among the Israelites and the alien residing among them—you shall have the same law for anyone who acts in error. 30But whoever acts high-handedly, whether a native or an alien, affronts the Lord, and shall be cut off from among the people. 31Because of having despised the word of the Lord and broken his commandment, such a person shall be utterly cut off and bear the guilt.
The keyword is "unintentional". Notice it has been stressed not once but twice.
As we go further from the Torah, ie. in the Prophets and Writings, we find that offering/sacrifice is de-emphasized. This was even before Jesus Christ came.
Your example of Enoch shows you have no freaking idea what's going on in the Torah. Please la .. Enoch was BEFORE Moses. The 10 commandments and the 613 mitzvahs were not even given yet. Wah biang ..
Only Jews can be saved? Where did you read that? On the contrary, it is mainstream Jewish belief that the righteous of all nations have a share in the world to come. This is recorded in the Talmud and if you argue that they try to twist God's words, then the Talmud will be the best place to twist them. -
Skibi, you are utterly confused. You have no proper understanding of Christianity or Judaism.
For the universal laws that apply to all mankind, read the 7 noahide laws. In fact, Rabbi Yochanan argues in the Talmud that the 7 laws are implicit in God's commandment to Adam and Eve, hence the 7 laws are binding on Enoch even.
The sacrificial/offering system is only binding on the Jews. -
Icey really like RoTKOriginally posted by Icemoon:what leow eh .. now is like romance of the three kingdoms liddat.
brey, skibi, vince/laoda.
I think I am Meng Huo. -
No I don't. I prefer the Warring States more.Originally posted by vince69:Icey really like RoTK
If we have 7 parties, I will call it the Warring States. -
ok ... lets keep to the topic here, for RoTK and Warring States discussion, we go to your Forbidden city to discuss (bring up some rating for you alsoOriginally posted by Icemoon:No I don't. I prefer the Warring States more.
If we have 7 parties, I will call it the Warring States. 
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Skibi zao from this topic liao?
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He went another topicOriginally posted by Icemoon:Skibi zao from this topic liao?
Spot the skibi -
yah... saw him... still ranting on the same thing... still ignoring everything else ...Originally posted by laurence82:He went another topic
Spot the skibi
Skibi ... one funny fellow .... still refuse to answer on where his own stand is ... still curious on whether he is a mystic or gnostic practioneer....
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Originally posted by laoda99:
Unker Vince,
He will not reply one. This type is hit and run one.......hit when u dun notice and run when u ask him further...Matthew 5:5 NIV
Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
Psalm 37:11 NIV
But the meek will inherit the land and enjoy great peace. -
Hi, your post is confusing, you quote verses without stating your view on them, furthermore, your quotation of verses were incomplete, ignoring those parts that may contridict your stand.Originally posted by Skibi:
Please quote them in full context or don't quote at all, and please also state your own understanding and/or reason for quoting them. without doing this, it will be easy for people to jump into conclusion which is not helpful in any discussion.
Pleas also state you purpose and stand (from where is your point of view coming from?) clearly, so as to avoid misunderstanding
Thanks -
I have already stated my view very clearly and do not think i need to keep repeating myself. If you didn't understand anything then it is not meant for you to understand - no matter how many times i explain, you will still choose not to believe and say you don't understand.Originally posted by vince69:Hi, your post is confusing, you quote verses without stating your view on them, furthermore, your quotation of verses were incomplete, ignoring those parts that may contridict your stand.
Please quote them in full context or don't quote at all, and please also state your own understanding and/or reason for quoting them. without doing this, it will be easy for people to jump into conclusion which is not helpful in any discussion.
Pleas also state you purpose and stand (from where is your point of view coming from?) clearly, so as to avoid misunderstanding
Thanks -
Originally posted by laoda99:
Unker Vince,
He will not reply one. This type is hit and run one.......hit when u dun notice and run when u ask him further...Matthew 5:5 NIV
Just because I exercise restraint and do not flame or join you in name-calling does not mean I am weak. Meekness is a controlled strength. Jesus was meek during his ministry and showed his true power only when really necessary.
Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
Psalm 37:11 NIV
But the meek will inherit the land and enjoy great peace.