Salvation by faith not works - a half truth
-
The question I ask here is that the faith of the christian, what fruits are they bearing when the church so clearly transgress the commandments and ways of Hashem?Originally posted by sillyme:My stand is the same as vince. Salvation is through grace by faith. And our our faith will bear fruits.
Maybe you can sum up your stand.
Is it not then the admonishment of Yeshua in Matthew 7: 21-23 :
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ -
As expected .. anyone trying to emphasize the commandments will use Matthew.
-
May I ask you to specify the transgression?Originally posted by breytonhartge:The question I ask here is that the faith of the christian, what fruits are they bearing when the church so clearly transgress the commandments and ways of Hashem?
Is it not then the admonishment of Yeshua in Matthew 7: 21-23 :
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ -
the church picks and chooses which ways of Hashem to keep and the rest they discard as old and passed away. Yeshua asked us to keep the commandments of Yahweh as He kept them, so why isn't the church doing the same? The most easily apparent one.. shabbat.Originally posted by sillyme:May I ask you to specify the transgression?
or has the church become so much like the pharisees of their day??
the church looks like the world, the world looks like the church, where is the sanctification? where is the being set apart to be HOLY?? -
try this one ok?Originally posted by Icemoon:As expected .. anyone trying to emphasize the commandments will use Matthew.
1 John 3:4
[ Sin and the Child of God ] Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
-
Your view is actually very un-jewish.Originally posted by breytonhartge:the church picks and chooses which ways of Hashem to keep and the rest they discard as old and passed away. Yeshua asked us to keep the commandments of Yahweh as He kept them, so why isn't the church doing the same? The most easily apparent one.. shabbat.
Gentiles cannot keep the shabbat. Notice the commandment to keep the shabbat is missing from the Noahide laws. -
liddat also can.Originally posted by breytonhartge:try this one ok?
1 John 3:4
[ Sin and the Child of God ] Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 
-
You sure Yeshua was speaking to you or not?Originally posted by breytonhartge:the church picks and chooses which ways of Hashem to keep and the rest they discard as old and passed away. Yeshua asked us to keep the commandments of Yahweh as He kept them, so why isn't the church doing the same?
I think He was speaking more to the Jews.
-
We have Yeshua as our redeemer kinsman who brings us into the commonwealth of Israel by His atoning sacrifice.Originally posted by Icemoon:Your view is actually very un-jewish.
Gentiles cannot keep the shabbat. Notice the commandment to keep the shabbat is missing from the Noahide laws.
Even in OT times, anyone who wanted to be saved would have to join with the nation of Israel, eg Ruth. What did these people do? Everything the Israelites did. So by becoming one with Israel, we become one with Yahweh, their God becomes our God, Hashem's ways become our ways. Hence His commandments are also ours, and keeping the shabbat is the fourth commandment. -
He was speaking to the jews. But He also said to make disciples of the nations. Hence, He is speaking to the goyim as well. Salvation is first for the Jew and then for the goyim.Originally posted by Icemoon:You sure Yeshua was speaking to you or not?
I think He was speaking more to the Jews.
He even gave Peter, the chief apostle that vision about the white sheet and the various kinds of food... and Peter understood it to be that what ever person Yahweh called clean, he was not to call unclean. (Has no link to what is clean food and what is not.) In the context, after Kefa had that dream he was summoned by the centurion who had a dream to aske Peter to come and share with him the gospel. Ordinarily, Kefa would not have gone, but in this instance, he did because Yahweh said it was ok for him to go. Kefa even baptised the first gentile believers and he even brought them into the synagogue which was forbidden. -
of course...Originally posted by Icemoon:liddat also can. 
-
hmm .. the kinsman redeemer is something Pastor Prince preached during one of the midweeks, but his context was that of Boaz.Originally posted by breytonhartge:We have Yeshua as our redeemer kinsman who brings us into the commonwealth of Israel by His atoning sacrifice.
Even in OT times, anyone who wanted to be saved would have to join with the nation of Israel, eg Ruth. What did these people do? Everything the Israelites did. So by becoming one with Israel, we become one with Yahweh, their God becomes our God, Hashem's ways become our ways. Hence His commandments are also ours, and keeping the shabbat is the fourth commandment.
Anyway the part in red is nonsense unless you can show me scriptural support. Did God tell Jonah to tell Nineveh to join Israel?
You quoted Ruth but obviously you never read the account properly. If the part in red is correct, then why did Naomi dissuade Ruth and Oprah from returning to Judah?
In fact, Naomi said in Ruth 1:15 - So she said, ‘See, your sister-in-law has gone back to her people and to her gods; return after your sister-in-law.’ -
But the command to make disciples of all nations came AFTER his ministry. So arguably, whatever was said during His ministry pertains more to the Jews than gentiles.Originally posted by breytonhartge:He was speaking to the jews. But He also said to make disciples of the nations. Hence, He is speaking to the goyim as well. Salvation is first for the Jew and then for the goyim.
He even gave Peter, the chief apostle that vision about the white sheet and the various kinds of food... and Peter understood it to be that what ever person Yahweh called clean, he was not to call unclean. (Has no link to what is clean food and what is not.) In the context, after Kefa had that dream he was summoned by the centurion who had a dream to aske Peter to come and share with him the gospel. Ordinarily, Kefa would not have gone, but in this instance, he did because Yahweh said it was ok for him to go. Kefa even baptised the first gentile believers and he even brought them into the synagogue which was forbidden.
What Peter and Kefa? -
actually you never finished the story... what did Ruth say to Naomi?Originally posted by Icemoon:hmm .. the kinsman redeemer is something Pastor Prince preached during one of the midweeks, but his context was that of Boaz.
Anyway the part in red is nonsense unless you can show me scriptural support. Did God tell Jonah to tell Nineveh to join Israel?
You quoted Ruth but obviously you never read the account properly. If the part in red is correct, then why did Naomi dissuade Ruth and Oprah from returning to Judah?
In fact, Naomi said in Ruth 1:15 - So she said, ‘See, your sister-in-law has gone back to her people and to her gods; return after your sister-in-law.’
Ruth 1:16
But Ruth replied, "Don't urge me to leave you or to turn back from you. Where you go I will go, and where you stay I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God my God.
So what did Ruth do? become part of the nation of Israel. And part of the direct lineage for Yeshua.
Ruth 1:18
When Naomi realized that Ruth was determined to go with her, she stopped urging her. -
Kefa is Peter. sorry... my inconsistency...Originally posted by Icemoon:But the command to make disciples of all nations came AFTER his ministry. So arguably, whatever was said during His ministry pertains more to the Jews than gentiles.
What Peter and Kefa?
then why is it said in Isaiah
Isaiah 49:6
he says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
This was a prophecy about Yeshua... so His ministry was to the Jews as well as the gentiles... -
so is joining the nation of israel a necessary and sufficient condition? I say it is neither. if it is, then Naomi will NOT turn her daughters-in-law away liao .. right?Originally posted by breytonhartge:actually you never finished the story... what did Ruth say to Naomi?
Ruth 1:16
But Ruth replied, "Don't urge me to leave you or to turn back from you. Where you go I will go, and where you stay I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God my God.
So what did Ruth do? become part of the nation of Israel. And part of the direct lineage for Yeshua.
Ruth 1:18
When Naomi realized that Ruth was determined to go with her, she stopped urging her.
The Jews do not forbid conversion but it is [strongly] discouraged as seen in the episode of Ruth. -
Originally posted by vince69:
Do not discount your true worth in God's eyes with human logic. You are worth the blood of Jesus Christ. God judges the heart. Thus every deed done with a sincere heart is perfect in God's eyes no matter how insignificant it may seem to others. In this way we can be as perfect and holy as God which is necessary for salvation.
If our works can add on to what Christ had done, are we saying His work is not completed? and that we need to finish it for Him?
No, of course not, how can our imperfect work add or substract from His perfectly completed work?
Of inner character, deeds and faith. Inner character is most important followed by deeds which reflect that inner character. Faith while commendable, is not necessary for salvation - those who reject Jesus in this life because of the actions of unworthy/hypocritical/bigoted christians may still be saved based on their inner character and deeds. Thus salvation is open to all and not exclusive to christians - because Jesus died for everyone. -
now is kefa and peter. next time could be Iyov and Job. Then Yeshayahu and Isaiah ..Originally posted by breytonhartge:Kefa is Peter. sorry... my inconsistency...
then why is it said in Isaiah
Isaiah 49:6
he says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
This was a prophecy about Yeshua... so His ministry was to the Jews as well as the gentiles...
Isaiah 49:6 is talking about Jesus?? -
Brey, are you saying that salvation is only possible when one embraces the Jewish customs? When you mentioned commandments, are you speaking of just the ten Commandments? Or inclusive all the other laws passed to the Jews?
God placed the Commandments to restore order. It is not meant to be burdensome. I am sure you know Jesus broke the Sabbath in some of the Pharisees' eyes.
I believe it is more important to know that these commandments are in place to remind us of God's grace and mercy. They serve as a reminder of how He redeemed us from slavery. -
Originally posted by Skibi:
That is a lie. Leave us, satan.
Faith while commendable, is not necessary for salvation - those who reject Jesus in this life because of the actions of unworthy/hypocritical/bigoted christians may still be saved based on their inner character and deeds [b][/b] -
Originally posted by laoda99:That is a lie. Leave us, satan.
-
This is an excellent example why there are so many atheists and christian-haters in the world today. Instead of following the commandments of God and spreading love, christians like laoda99 spread hate and bigotry.Originally posted by laoda99:That is a lie. Leave us, satan. -
Love Satan? Not possible....Originally posted by Skibi:This is an excellent example why there are so many atheists and christian-haters in the world today. Instead of following the commandments of God and spreading love, christians like laoda99 spread hate and bigotry.
U are a hit&run guy, come in utter some half trues and some theology of yours, and then disappeared when it can't stand ground...... -
So everyone that exposes your wrong doings becomes a satan?Originally posted by laoda99:Love Satan? Not possible....
U are a hit&run guy, come in utter some half trues and some theology of yours, and then disappeared when it can't stand ground...... -
Sillyme, your exposition here is the precise problem with christianity... this is the precise deception that hasatan has wrought in the church... when were the ten commandments given to the Jews? They were specifically given to a certain group of people and not a race. It was given to a nation and not a race.Originally posted by sillyme:Brey, are you saying that salvation is only possible when one embraces the Jewish customs? When you mentioned commandments, are you speaking of just the ten Commandments? Or inclusive all the other laws passed to the Jews?
God placed the Commandments to restore order. It is not meant to be burdensome. I am sure you know Jesus broke the Sabbath in some of the Pharisees' eyes.
I believe it is more important to know that these commandments are in place to remind us of God's grace and mercy. They serve as a reminder of how He redeemed us from slavery.
Yahweh has given us the commandments so that we may have salvation and the right to the tree of life...
Revelation 22:14
Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
Commandments as in the all inclusive laws... not just the ten, but beginning with the ten.
Did Yeshua do work on the sabbath? no. He healed, which is allowed to do. But christians do not even keep shabbat... is sunday the LORD's day? No, it has never ever been... yet the church propagates the lies year after year...
According to the book of Hebrews, who was the new covenant been given to? The house of Israel and the house of Judah... See Heb 8:7-10
If we are not part of the covenant, we have no part of the promise...
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=226014
Sillyme, are you a bible believer or not? The majority of what is in the NT is taken from the OT.. so if you are saying that one is obsolete, then what is the basis for your faith, because there can be no NT without the OT (Holy Scirptures).