Salvation by faith not works - a half truth
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Even second-hand is still better than another mortal's opinion. i.e PaulOriginally posted by Icemoon:You read the words of God through the pens of mortals.
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Ok .. you sound more like Ebionite than Gnostic.Originally posted by Skibi:Even second-hand is still better than another mortal's opinion. i.e Paul 
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Originally posted by Icemoon:
Neither. Ebionites reject the divinity of Jesus among other things, I don't. I just read the bible.
Ok .. you sound more like Ebionite than Gnostic. -
errr .... I quoted from the gospel of John also leh... but how come gospel according to Matthew is admitted as teaching of Jesus but not gospel according to John???Originally posted by Icemoon:Issit any wonder people who place heavier emphasis on deeds will quote from Matthew than apostle paul? And vice versa.
It is the same with the Ebionites. It is the same with Skibi. -
Originally posted by laoda99:
Do u believe the holy spirit convicts and convert Christians, not people?
The most funny thing i read in EH is, Christians are self-serving and self-fish.
But when they spread the good news, they are also seen as bigoted.Originally posted by laoda99:
You have inadvertly answerered your own questions. The message of salvation by faith alone, that salvation is "free" through God's grace is really what Lucifer wants. This exclusive attitude of Christians has caused many people to be turned away from God and Christians to be hated by many.
Correction, salvation by faith not works/deeds is not just supported by some Christians. All mainstream Christians believed salvation is by faith thru God's grace. Even the RCC (which I have posted an article here ) believed so too.
This topic has been discussed all over and over again. Not surprisingly, people's stance changes. Even breyton who supported ur view adhere to the "orthodox" view: Salvation by faith thru grace. -
reading the Bible is good, studying it with understanding is better, no need too much resources, most of the complexity of the Bible, you can find the explaination within the Bible itself (this is based on the unity of the Bible).Originally posted by Skibi:Neither. Ebionites reject the divinity of Jesus among other things, I don't. I just read the bible.
Here is a description on why He have to come, suffer and died for our sin.
"righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities."
He is not here to suffer and die just to give us a choice? that's a free will, no, He came to bear the punishment for our sins, that through faith in His finished work, we can receive Salvation by the grace of God.Isaiah 53
1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied ;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors. -
actually, we are not debating whether deeds is important, the debate is whetherOriginally posted by MS:By now if we're still arguing that deeds are not impt then something is amiss.
Through Christ we gain eternal life so that we can avoid the 2nd death based on Jesus's death on the cross and ressurection. That who so ever believes in him shall not die the eternal death.
Deeds alone cannot give us the ticket to heaven. But deeds are impt though not the determining factor whether we go to heaven or not. Deeds as in offering ourselves as living sacrifices eg means to live a good example to God's standards so as to avoid the wrath of our God like a child avoid the wrath of his father.
Good deeds are also done in order to win the pity of God as good deeds is the way or Tao to a spiritual worship. (romans 12:1) In short. Lead by example.
Deeds alone cannot atone our sins. It is only Jesus's name that's the only ticket that saves.
1) Christ alone sufficient for our salvation
OR
2) Christ is not good enough such that we need to add our deeds onto His work on the cross to make it complete.
??? -
Ok ... here is my personal conviction:
While we cannot de-emphasis the importance of works/deeds, we must always remember that salvation is by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross, our works can neither add to or substract from what Christ had completed (so nobody can boast).
What then is the significant of doing good works/deeds? but for the very reason, He had done it all for us and its only through Him that we are enabled to do good works/deeds that are acceptable before God.
OK ... now that I have spoken my piece ... I will stop here ... you folks have fun
peace
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Originally posted by sillyme:
Previously only those people that practised the tradition of offering lambs as sacrifice for their sins could have a chance at salvation. This was because God has declared that everyone that sins must die. The Jews knew about this but they failed in their duty to educate the nations around them.
Please explain what you mean by "power of choice".
Due to the failure of the Jews, Jesus was chosen to die in place of the tradional lamb. The sacrifice Jesus made was to buy back to souls of everyone past/present/and future who had sinned and not been absolved by a burnt offering before their death, and give them the power of choice to choose their eternal allegiance freely again.
This means that gentiles who died in the past having no knowledge of the tradition of burnt offerings may be saved based on their inner character and deeds while they were alive.
Also means that people in the present and future who died untimely without knowledge of Jesus may also be saved based on similar criteria.
A side note:
Currently as our souls are owned by Jesus, there is no way that anyone can sell their soul to the devil! That is the value of Jesus' blood. -
Originally posted by vince69:
Before Jesus, there was Enoch. Was Enoch without sin? No. The bible says that only Jesus is without sin. Yet Enoch went directly to heaven. Jesus didn't need to die for him. He was saved though his own actions of cultivating a pure inner character over time as well as through his good deeds.
While we cannot de-emphasis the importance of works/deeds, we must always remember that salvation is by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ on the cross, our works can neither add to or substract from what Christ had completed (so nobody can boast).
What then is the significant of doing good works/deeds? but for the very reason, He had done it all for us and its only through Him that we are enabled to do good works/deeds that are acceptable before God. -
- --- nevermind ... forget it --- already said I will stop ---- already spoken whatever I had in mind ---
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The Christian argument is always so simplistic.Originally posted by vince69:What then is the significant of doing good works/deeds? but for the very reason, He had done it all for us and its only through Him that we are enabled to do good works/deeds that are acceptable before God.
Why must doing good deeds be for some ulterior motive like earning brownie points?
Why can't it simply be because it is the correct thing to do? Like the bible says, God put the laws in our hearts.
Will good works/deeds that are done out of love of God be unacceptable before God? -
I am sorry but this is rubbish.Originally posted by Skibi:Previously only those people that practised the tradition of offering lambs as sacrifice for their sins could have a chance at salvation. This was because God has declared that everyone that sins must die. The Jews knew about this but they failed in their duty to educate the nations around them.
You say the Jews knew about this, so please quote scriptural support from the Old Testament.
In fact, the Book of Jonah already demolishes your argument. What did God tell Jonah to tell Nineveh? -
you asking me a question?? ok, for you lah...Originally posted by Icemoon:The Christian argument is always so simplistic.
Why must doing good deeds be for some ulterior motive like earning brownie points?
Why can't it simply be because it is the correct thing to do? Like the bible says, God put the laws in our hearts.
Will good works/deeds that are done out of love of God be unacceptable before God?
doing good deeds with any ulterior motive is already not acceptable, its not doing good deeds, its call doing a job (rewards is the motive)
you are right, obedience should be from the heart, a willing heart.
good deeds that are done out of love of God is acceptable, but what is this love of God, if its apart from Christ? for its through Christ that the love of God manifested to us, that while we are yet sinners, Christ died for us, and that whosoever believe in Him will receive eternal life.
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There is no record in the Bible of people having love of God but apart from Christ. The only examples have been used by Christian to extrapolate Jesus back into the Old Testament.Originally posted by vince69:good deeds that are done out of love of God is acceptable, but what is this love of God, if its apart from Christ? for its through Christ that the love of God manifested to us, that while we are yet sinners, Christ died for us, and that whosoever believe in Him will receive eternal life. -
Icey ... so clever...Originally posted by Icemoon:There is no record in the Bible of people having love of God but apart from Christ. The only examples have been used by Christian to extrapolate Jesus back into the Old Testament.
nope... don't quite fancy doing extrapolates, very prone to error... -
The Christian argument is like a golden armour (LOL) .. once you say Jesus is God, any reference to God in the Old Testament will mean Jesus is being referenced too.Originally posted by vince69:Icey ... so clever...
nope... don't quite fancy doing extrapolates, very prone to error...
Historically, Christians like to claim everything.
So is Jesus god or man? The Church says Jesus is both. (any groups that use the exclusive or approach are branded heretics)
So should Christians follow the Old or New Testament? The Church says both are equally binding and glaring contradictions are swept under the carpet or de-emphasized. Ebionites hugged the OT and Marcionites hugged the NT .. the rest is history. -
whats the meaning of OOT??
......... sorry....
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Originally posted by Icemoon:
Since you like to argue, I shan't entertain you. Have fun reading the bible a few more times.
I am sorry but this is rubbish.
You say the Jews knew about this, so please quote scriptural support from the Old Testament.
In fact, the Book of Jonah already demolishes your argument. What did God tell Jonah to tell Nineveh? -
Are u a Christian?Originally posted by Skibi:You have inadvertly answerered your own questions. The message of salvation by faith alone, that salvation is "free" through God's grace is really what Lucifer wants. This exclusive attitude of Christians has caused many people to be turned away from God and Christians to be hated by many. -
I have a feeling u are mixing bits of truth with something of ur own.Originally posted by Skibi:Previously only those people that practised the tradition of offering lambs as sacrifice for their sins could have a chance at salvation. This was because God has declared that everyone that sins must die. The Jews knew about this but they failed in their duty to educate the nations around them.
Due to the failure of the Jews, Jesus was chosen to die in place of the tradional lamb. The sacrifice Jesus made was to buy back to souls of everyone past/present/and future who had sinned and not been absolved by a burnt offering before their death, and give them the power of choice to choose their eternal allegiance freely again.
This means that gentiles who died in the past having no knowledge of the tradition of burnt offerings may be saved based on their inner character and deeds while they were alive.
Also means that people in the present and future who died untimely without knowledge of Jesus may also be saved based on similar criteria.
A side note:
Currently as our souls are owned by Jesus, there is no way that anyone can sell their soul to the devil! That is the value of Jesus' blood. -
out of topic?Originally posted by davidche:whats the meaning of OOT??
......... sorry.... -
Are you implying you have read the bible a lot of times, more than the Christians here?Originally posted by Skibi:Since you like to argue, I shan't entertain you. Have fun reading the bible a few more times. -
I suppose u only take the 4 gospels in the bible as genuine?Originally posted by Skibi:You have inadvertly answerered your own questions. The message of salvation by faith alone, that salvation is "free" through God's grace is really what Lucifer wants. This exclusive attitude of Christians has caused many people to be turned away from God and Christians to be hated by many. -
So now you are saying we do not need to believe in Jesus?Originally posted by Skibi:Previously only those people that practised the tradition of offering lambs as sacrifice for their sins could have a chance at salvation. This was because God has declared that everyone that sins must die. The Jews knew about this but they failed in their duty to educate the nations around them.
Due to the failure of the Jews, Jesus was chosen to die in place of the tradional lamb. The sacrifice Jesus made was to buy back to souls of everyone past/present/and future who had sinned and not been absolved by a burnt offering before their death, and give them the power of choice to choose their eternal allegiance freely again.
This means that gentiles who died in the past having no knowledge of the tradition of burnt offerings may be saved based on their inner character and deeds while they were alive.
Also means that people in the present and future who died untimely without knowledge of Jesus may also be saved based on similar criteria.
A side note:
Currently as our souls are owned by Jesus, there is no way that anyone can sell their soul to the devil! That is the value of Jesus' blood.
But you said previously, that we must believe in Jesus with sincerity.Originally posted by Skibi:
My stand is the same as vince. Salvation is through grace by faith. And our our faith will bear fruits.
Rather the words of John are meant to support the words of his master Jesus. Believe refers to believing in Jesus sincerity that salvation is promised if you follow his teaching to have pure inner character and do good deeds to reflect this.
Maybe you can sum up your stand.