Salvation by faith not works - a half truth
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I agree with you... don't think its about mastering a language, but in most modules taught in Bible college (among those I know of, which is not many), the language module are normally based on scriptural text, meaning to allow the students to gain certain proficiency enough to be able to do basic scritpural study using the original (Greek/Hebrew) text.Originally posted by Icemoon:Master a language? I know they take biblical language modules inside, but that is not equivalent to mastering a language. In university, even after completing Jap 4, you also won't dare to say you have mastered Japanese. Tell that to the nihon-jins and they will laugh at you.
I wonder which denominations you are referring to. I'd love to see a pastor read the Torah to me.
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Ok my bad....Originally posted by vince69:I agree with you... don't think its about mastering a language, but in most modules taught in Bible college (among those I know of, which is not many), the language module are normally based on scriptural text, meaning to allow the students to gain certain proficiency enough to be able to do basic scritpural study using the original (Greek/Hebrew) text.
But I have a question, can Icemoon understand if someone recite to him the torah in hebrew? -
Originally posted by vince69:
Wrong.
Is Salvation by faith alone? yes, but this faith have to be upon the finished work of Christ on the cross and nothing else.
If our works can add on to what Christ had done, are we saying His work is not completed? and that we need to finish it for Him?
No, of course not, how can our imperfect work add or substract from His perfectly completed work?
Salvation is by faith in Christ alone, period. good deeds/works comes after this through the grace that comes to us from God after having being made right with God through faith in Christ.
Paul never taught that faith alone will bring salvation. Read what he says below and realise that what you propose is but a half-truth. (btw half-truths are far worse sins than outright lies)Ephesians 6:8 NIV
because you know that the Lord will reward everyone for whatever good he
does, whether he is slave or free.Hebrews 11:35 NIV
Women received back their dead, raised to life again. Others were tortured and refused to be released, so that they might gain a better resurrection.2 John 1:8 NIV
Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully.1 corinthians 9:24 NIV
And from God himself...
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.Revelation 22:12 NIV
Still think that deeds are not important?
"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. -
Can't. 'cos first I don't understand Hebrew except for the very basic words. secondly rabbis typically speak Herbew faster than they speak English.Originally posted by laoda99:Ok my bad....
But I have a question, can Icemoon understand if someone recite to him the torah in hebrew? -
Originally posted by vince69:
Going by your logic, we should all take Paul's words as rubbish since as a mortal he is just as imperfect as the rest of us.
No, of course not, how can our imperfect work add or substract from His perfectly completed work? -
Did I says deed is not important?Originally posted by Skibi:Still think that deeds are not important?
I did say, Salvation is not based on our Deeds, its based on Faith in Christ Alone.
all these verses you quoted, have no mention on Salvation, but Rewards instead
on how important is our deeds being used/measured?1 Corinthians 3 : 10 - 15
whatever deeds we do (must be upon the foundation of Christ), will be tested, if its acceptable, it will survive the test and the doer will be rewarded, if its not acceptable, what will this person lose? not his salvation, for he will still be saved, what is lost are just the rewards.
10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.Romans 11:6
Salvation is by grace through Christ Jesus, if works is required, its no longer grace, its called payment/reward.
And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.Ephesians 2 : 8-10
We are saved by grace through faith in Christ, we do good works because we are saved, not to be save.
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. -
Not true. If we reject Jesus by our deeds there will be no salvation.
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Hebrew 10 :15-22
1) Confidence to enter the Most Holy Place (where the throne of God is) by the blood of Jesus
15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16"This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds." 17Then he adds:
"Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.
18And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. 19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.
2) We have a great priest (Jesus) over the house of God
3) in full assurance of faith, our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and our bodies washedHebrew 11:23 - 25
Then after this (being saved), here is the response as a result of being saved
23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. 24And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
1) hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, knowing that He who promises is faithful
2) spur one another towards love and good deeds (note: this happened after we are saved, not in order for us to be save)
3) meet each other (church context) to encourage one another in the faith. -
Told you liao .. the words of Jesus and Paul sometimes contradict each another.Originally posted by Skibi:Not true. If we reject Jesus by our deeds there will be no salvation.
Paul's words can even override the apostles who have lived and talked with Jesus .. what do you expect? -
Then question is, is there faith in Christ at the begining?Originally posted by Skibi:Not true. If we reject Jesus by our deeds there will be no salvation. -
Originally posted by vince69:
Please go read the parable of the workers in the vineyard again. All got one denarius regardless of how long they worked. Salvation is the only reward.
whatever deeds we do (must be upon the foundation of Christ), will be tested, if its acceptable, it will survive the test and the doer will be rewarded, if its not acceptable, what will this person lose? not his salvation, for he will still be saved, what is lost are just the rewards.
Also notice that everyone worked before they got the reward.
Thus if your deeds are unacceptable, hell is the place for you.
If your deeds are acceptable no matter how little, you might have a place in heaven.
As I have emphasized before, for deeds to be acceptable one must have inner character that loves God and man. The poor widow only gave 2 copper coins as offering compared to the other rich people, but her deeds were acceptable to God.
Therefore one must have...
1. Inner character (have love for God and man)
2. Deeds to reflect that inner character -
Originally posted by Skibi:
you do know, what is the difference between a gift (given through grace) and a reward (given because of a payment for deeds/works) ?
Please go read the parable of the workers in the vineyard again. All got one denarius regardless of how long they worked. Salvation is the only reward.
[b]Also notice that everyone worked before they got the reward.
Thus if your deeds are unacceptable, hell is the place for you.
If your deeds are acceptable no matter how little, you might have a place in heaven.
As I have emphasized before, for deeds to be acceptable one must have inner character that loves God and man. The poor widow only gave 2 copper coins as offering compared to the other rich people, but her deeds were acceptable to God.
Therefore one must have...
1. Inner character (have love for God and man)
2. Deeds to reflect that inner character
[/b]
If Salvation is a reward, that means one can earn his/her way to heaven. This means Christ died in vain.Galatians 2 : 17-21
17"If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. 19For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" -
Originally posted by vince69:
I think you are confused here. The reason Jesus died was to give us the power of choice not automatic salvation. If faith enabled automatic salvation all christians would be in heaven by now like Enoch since we all believe in christ.
you do know, what is the difference between a gift (given through grace) and a reward (given because of a payment for deeds/works) ?
If Salvation is a reward, that means one can earn his/her way to heaven. This means Christ died in vain.
How we use this power of choice will depend on our inner character and subsequent deeds.
Now how did Enoch get to heaven as Jesus didn't have to die for him? It is through cultivation of pure inner character which is reflected by his deeds. -
Originally posted by Skibi:
The Parable of the worker of the vineyard
Please go read the parable of the workers in the vineyard again. All got one denarius regardless of how long they worked. Salvation is the only reward.
[b]Also notice that everyone worked before they got the reward.
[/b]
(very good, lets see who are the people Jesus is telling the parable to?
The Apostles, and its right after Jesus talks about the rich young man)Matthew 19:27-30
Here, Peter is asking the Lord, how hah, we not like the rich young man, we left everything to follow you hah?
27Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?"
28Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother[f] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.
and then in Matthew 20, comes the parable of the Vineyard, its seems to me, its a direct answer to Peter's question on how believers will be rewarded (ie. those who are already in Christ) -
wow... you are really confused now, the choice is to whether you want to receive the gift of Salvation that is through faith in Christ Jesus or Reject Him. period.Originally posted by Skibi:I think you are confused here. The reason Jesus died was to give us the power of choice not automatic salvation. If faith enabled automatic salvation all christians would be in heaven by now like Enoch since we all believe in christ.
How we use this power of choice will depend on our inner character and subsequent deeds.
Now how did Enoch get to heaven as Jesus didn't have to die for him? It is through pure inner character which is reflected by his deeds - a blameless life without sin.
If it depends on our inner character and deeds, then there is no need for Christ to come, the Laws is already doing the job (obey = blessed/live, disobey = cursed/die).John 3 : 11-18
That everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life.
11I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[d] 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. -
Please explain what you mean by "power of choice".Originally posted by Skibi:I think you are confused here. The reason Jesus died was to give us the power of choice not automatic salvation. If faith enabled automatic salvation all christians would be in heaven by now like Enoch since we all believe in christ.
How we use this power of choice will depend on our inner character and subsequent deeds.
Now how did Enoch get to heaven as Jesus didn't have to die for him? It is through pure inner character which is reflected by his deeds - a blameless life without sin. -
Originally posted by vince69:
Again these are the words of John, not Jesus. How can you place a servant above the master by not taking Jesus own words into account? Lucifer also believes that God exists. Does this mean the he too is entitled to eternal life?
quote:
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John 3 : 11-18
11I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[d] 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
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That everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life.
Rather the words of John are meant to support the words of his master Jesus. Believe refers to believing in Jesus sincerity that salvation is promised if you follow his teaching to have pure inner character and do good deeds to reflect this. -
By now if we're still arguing that deeds are not impt then something is amiss.
Through Christ we gain eternal life so that we can avoid the 2nd death based on Jesus's death on the cross and ressurection. That who so ever believes in him shall not die the eternal death.
Deeds alone cannot give us the ticket to heaven. But deeds are impt though not the determining factor whether we go to heaven or not. Deeds as in offering ourselves as living sacrifices eg means to live a good example to God's standards so as to avoid the wrath of our God like a child avoid the wrath of his father.
Good deeds are also done in order to win the pity of God as good deeds is the way or Tao to a spiritual worship. (romans 12:1) In short. Lead by example.
Deeds alone cannot atone our sins. It is only Jesus's name that's the only ticket that saves. -
So you are saying that we must believe first, then thereafter bear fruits. That is salvation by faith, bearing fruits through works to me.Originally posted by Skibi:Again these are the words of John, not Jesus. How can you place a servant above the master by not taking Jesus own words into account? Lucifer also believes that God exists. Does this mean the he too is entitled to eternal life?
Rather the words of John are meant to support the words of his master Jesus. Believe refers to believing in Jesus sincerity that salvation is promised if you follow his teaching to have pure inner character and do good deeds to reflect this. -
err... read the thing, John 3 : 11-18 is the words of Jesus, spoken by Him, recorded by the apostle John.Originally posted by Skibi:Again these are the words of John, not Jesus. How can you place a servant above the master by not taking Jesus own words into account? Lucifer also believes that God exists. Does this mean the he too is entitled to eternal life?
Rather the words of John are meant to support the words of his master Jesus. Believe refers to believing in Jesus sincerity that salvation is promised if you follow his teaching to have pure inner character and do good deeds to reflect this.
Believes in Him (His death, resurrection), received Salvation through grace by faith in Him.
Believes that God Exist? yes, even Lucifer believe that, and He rebel against God too, remember?
one question .... are you coming from the POV of a Gnostic practioneer? just curious, cause you really sounds like one -
Originally posted by sillyme:
Boss ... me offline liao... have fun
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Let me make it clearer...Originally posted by sillyme:So you are saying that we must believe first, then thereafter bear fruits. That is salvation by faith, bearing fruits through works to me.
Inner Character-Matthew 7:18 NIV
Deeds-
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.Matthew 7:19 NIV
As all trees that bear good fruit are good trees and thus not cut down, similarly those who posess pure inner character and do good deeds will have salvation assured regardless of their faith. Therefore salvation is not exclusive to christians but rather open to all.
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. -
Issit any wonder people who place heavier emphasis on deeds will quote from Matthew than apostle paul? And vice versa.
It is the same with the Ebionites. It is the same with Skibi. -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
I place more emphasis on the words of God than mortals.
Issit any wonder people who place heavier emphasis on deeds will quote from Matthew than apostle paul? And vice versa.
It is the same with the Ebionites. It is the same with Skibi. -
You read the words of God through the pens of mortals.Originally posted by Skibi:I place more emphasis on the words of God than mortals. 