Salvation by faith not works - a half truth
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The whole idea that some christians subscribe to - salvation by faith not works/deeds - is a lie or at best a half truth.
Matthew 5:20 NIV
In other words, although inner character(love God and man) is the most important, deeds are necessary too. Note that the Bible does not command us to have faith. Faith is a by-product of loving God. Faith by itself without true love for God and deeds to show is worthless.
For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. -
you almost have it...Originally posted by Skibi:The whole idea that some christians subscribe to - salvation by faith not works/deeds - is a lie or at best a half truth.
In other words, although inner character(love God and man) is the most important, deeds are necessary too. Note that the Bible does not command us to have faith. Faith is a by-product of loving God. Faith by itself without true love for God and deeds to show is worthless. -
the by product of faith is good deeds.Originally posted by Skibi:The whole idea that some christians subscribe to - salvation by faith not works/deeds - is a lie or at best a half truth.
In other words, although inner character(love God and man) is the most important, deeds are necessary too. Note that the Bible does not command us to have faith. Faith is a by-product of loving God. Faith by itself without true love for God and deeds to show is worthless.
not the other way round. -
1) Who are those people who can exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees?Originally posted by Skibi:The whole idea that some christians subscribe to - salvation by faith not works/deeds - is a lie or at best a half truth.
Matthew 5:20 NIV
For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
In other words, although inner character(love God and man) is the most important, deeds are necessary too. Note that the Bible does not command us to have faith. Faith is a by-product of loving God. Faith by itself without true love for God and deeds to show is worthless.
Those who have Christ indwelling in them. Christ indwelling through the Holy Spirit makes us capable of being filled with the fruits of righteousness to the glory of God.
Php 1:11 being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.
It is only BY Jesus Christ that true righteousness is possible. All other righteousness will not do with God. God does not accept filthy rags righteousness.
How can we have Christ in us?
By trusting alone in Christ alone.
When we have trusted in Christ, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit indwells us.
When we have the Holy Spirit in us, what are some of the fruits that will be manifested through us as we walk in the Spirit?
Ga 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
We are only capable of giving true love when we have the Holy Spirit in us and we walking in HIm. AGain we recieved the Holy Spirit through faith alone in Christ alone.
Example: Was Paul a Pharisee? Yes
Php 3:5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee;
How did Paul surpass the righteousness of the Pharisee? by faith alone in Christ alone
Php 3:9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;
2) the Bible does not command us to have faith?
Mr 11:22 So Jesus answered and said to them, "Have faith in God.
Joh 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.
Paul told the Philippian jailer: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.........."
Of course Paul was exhorting him to believe in Christ truly, to have faith in Christ truly. When that happens, our hearts are purified through faith in Jesus Christ.
Ac 15:9 "and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
When can a heart be purified and be capable of loving? When it has been cleansed by faith in Christ. Paul knew that trusting in Christ will transformed the sinner from the inside out, giving him a new heart capable of true love, therefore Paul [or God through Paul] commanded the jailer to believe [trust] in the Lord Jesus Christ.
3) faith is the result of loving God?
Love is the result of a renewed and purified heart by faith alone in Christ alone
We love Him because we have appropriated the truth by faith that He first loved us, that He gave Himself for us.
4) The whole idea that some christians subscribe to - salvation by faith not works/deeds - is a lie or at best a half truth.
Please notice the word "by" in verse 8 and the word "for" in verse 10 below. We are saved BY grace through faith......not of works but FOR good works.
Paul said that:
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. -
Correction, salvation by faith not works/deeds is not just supported by some Christians. All mainstream Christians believed salvation is by faith thru God's grace. Even the RCC (which I have posted an article here ) believed so too.Originally posted by Skibi:The whole idea that some christians subscribe to - salvation by faith not works/deeds - is a lie or at best a half truth.
In other words, although inner character(love God and man) is the most important, deeds are necessary too. Note that the Bible does not command us to have faith. Faith is a by-product of loving God. Faith by itself without true love for God and deeds to show is worthless.
This topic has been discussed all over and over again. Not surprisingly, people's stance changes. Even breyton who supported ur view adhere to the "orthodox" view: Salvation by faith thru grace.
May I ask you what do u mean by "the Bible does not command us to have faith"? -
the pharasees and the teachers of the law were always protrayed to be ppl who were more concerned with outward appearances.. outward holiness, maintaining the "christian to-do" list, wearing nice clothes, always chionging for the important seats in the synagogue, frowning when they fast so that people know that they fast, praying in public to appear holy. And worse still, they always put spiritual burdens on the people without lifting a finger to help. This, Jesus was extremely disappointed with.Originally posted by Skibi:The whole idea that some christians subscribe to - salvation by faith not works/deeds - is a lie or at best a half truth.
In other words, although inner character(love God and man) is the most important, deeds are necessary too. Note that the Bible does not command us to have faith. Faith is a by-product of loving God. Faith by itself without true love for God and deeds to show is worthless.
That's why Jesus preached that when we fast, we don't appear to be fasting, and when we pray, we hide in the room (Not literally).
So it was no wonder that their "righteousness" couldn't get them to heaven. simply because deeds can't get them to heaven. because no one gets to heaven except through the Son.
Only faith, and faith in the Son alone saves.
In fact, the bible states very clearly, that deeds do not save. Deeds are like filthy rags to him. Our best deeds can't even match with God's standard of holiness. If deeds could save, Jesus wouldn't need to die on the cross for us.
Deeds come later, when your own love for God compels you to do deeds for him, such as sharing the gospel, serving the church, to even giving up your seat in the bus to an elderly, to honour God. It's a natural process, as love conquers your heart, and overflows, you will automatically love others.
That's why again, the bible says, Love is the most important of all.
anyone agrees? -
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
Hi Dumb Dumb,
[b]
the pharasees and the teachers of the law were always protrayed to be ppl who were more concerned with outward appearances.. outward holiness, maintaining the "christian to-do" list, wearing nice clothes, always chionging for the important seats in the synagogue, frowning when they fast so that people know that they fast, praying in public to appear holy. And worse still, they always put spiritual burdens on the people without lifting a finger to help. This, Jesus was extremely disappointed with.
That's why Jesus preached that when we fast, we don't appear to be fasting, and when we pray, we hide in the room (Not literally).
So it was no wonder that their "righteousness" couldn't get them to heaven. simply because deeds can't get them to heaven. because no one gets to heaven except through the Son.
Only faith, and faith in the Son alone saves.
In fact, the bible states very clearly, that deeds do not save. Deeds are like filthy rags to him. Our best deeds can't even match with God's standard of holiness. If deeds could save, Jesus wouldn't need to die on the cross for us.
Deeds come later, when your own love for God compels you to do deeds for him, such as sharing the gospel, serving the church, to even giving up your seat in the bus to an elderly, to honour God. It's a natural process, as love conquers your heart, and overflows, you will automatically love others.
That's why again, the bible says, Love is the most important of all.
anyone agrees?b]
Just remembered, felt funny with the quote TS started and explained. You pointed out the mistake he made.
Thanks. -
welcome.Originally posted by laoda99:Hi Dumb Dumb,
Just remembered, felt funny with the quote TS started and explained. You pointed out the mistake he made.
Thanks.
i just edited my message. maybe u want to update? -
You are half right and half wrong.
We cannot say that we have faith in Christ and yet not do what he tells us. Thus, if we have faith, deeds must also follow. Both go hand-in-hand. It is futile to have one without the other.........
Thus, those who declare that men are saved by faith/grace alone may like to re-examine this precept.........
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well, you can't exactly say that either la.. personally i feel everyone is different, have different levels of faith.Originally posted by :You are half right and half wrong.
We cannot say that we have faith in Christ and yet not do what he tells us. Thus, if we have faith, deeds must also follow. Both go hand-in-hand. It is futile to have one without the other.........
Thus, those who declare that men are saved by faith/grace alone may like to re-examine this precept.........
one man's faith allows him to eat meat without worrying, the other man's faith only allows him to eat vegetable. so is the man who has the faith to eat meat more holy? not really lor.
because everyone have different levels of faith, allowing them to perform different deeds. a pastor's faith may allow him to give up everything for the gospel. but my level of faith doesn't allow me to do that. so does that mean i'm not performing any deeds and that i'm not saved?
but you are right in saying that deeds will follow. i want you to understand that when you say deeds will follow, its a natural process from the love of God. The work which God started in you. and not something which you force yourself to doing.
its going to be a real burden if you everyday force yourself to do things which you think God wants you to do, so that you can be saved.
"If I skip cell group, God is going to hate me, and i'm not saved."
"If I never read the bible, I'm not performing any deeds in faith, so I'm not saved."
"If I drink, I'm going to look like a bad christian, so I'm not saved."
"If I listen to new age music, watch harry potter and the matrix, I'm not being a good christian, so I'm not saved."
and this goes on and on, and until you lose focus on what's important and you're burdened by guilt and worry and shame.. In the end, you lose sight of Jesus.
And you're going to be so focused on doing deeds to save yourself and burn yourself out, instead of relying on the grace of God, who loved you unconditionally, and accepted you for who you are, and not what you do. And that you're secure that even at the most rotten, God still loves you.
The whole reason why Jesus died, was to take away this burden of saving ourselves. So stop trying to, and remember why you received Jesus.
The message is very simple. We're sinners, we can't save ourselves, Jesus died to pay the price of sin, so we don't have to pay it anymore. Full stop.
Deeds will come naturally when you fill yourself with God's love.
Like my Jie told me. "Whatever makes you feel loved by God and motivate you to be a better person. Do it."
Personally, I never liked going to cellgroup. I never liked travelling the distance.. I don't like spending 2 hours at tampines, and spending 1 hour travelling back home. I'd rather do something else, something fun. Like watch a movie or hang out with friends.
Does that mean I'm not saved, because I'm not doing any deeds that most christians would want me to do? -
Originally posted by :
It is good that you have understood this.
We cannot say that we have faith in Christ and yet not do what he tells us. Thus, if we have faith, deeds must also follow. Both go hand-in-hand. It is futile to have one without the other.........
Thus, those who declare that men are saved by faith/grace alone may like to re-examine this precept.........
Jesus placed more emphasis on inner character(to love God and man) and deeds than faith. Faith is a by-product of these. The words and teachings of Jesus take precedence over Paul's. -
The words of Paul and Christ sound contradicting at times.
Sorry, I mean the words of the gospel authors (presenting the words of Jesus) and those of Apostle Paul sound contradicting at times. -
Originally posted by Ironside:
to sum it up:
1) Who are those people who can exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees?
Those who have Christ indwelling in them. Christ indwelling through the Holy Spirit makes us capable of being filled with the fruits of righteousness to the glory of God.
Php 1:11 being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are [b]by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.
It is only BY Jesus Christ that true righteousness is possible. All other righteousness will not do with God. God does not accept filthy rags righteousness.
How can we have Christ in us?
By trusting alone in Christ alone.
When we have trusted in Christ, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit indwells us.
When we have the Holy Spirit in us, what are some of the fruits that will be manifested through us as we walk in the Spirit?
Ga 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
We are only capable of giving true love when we have the Holy Spirit in us and we walking in HIm. AGain we recieved the Holy Spirit through faith alone in Christ alone.
Example: Was Paul a Pharisee? Yes
Php 3:5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee;
How did Paul surpass the righteousness of the Pharisee? by faith alone in Christ alone
Php 3:9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;
2) the Bible does not command us to have faith?
Mr 11:22 So Jesus answered and said to them, "Have faith in God.
Joh 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.
Paul told the Philippian jailer: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.........."
Of course Paul was exhorting him to believe in Christ truly, to have faith in Christ truly. When that happens, our hearts are purified through faith in Jesus Christ.
Ac 15:9 "and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
When can a heart be purified and be capable of loving? When it has been cleansed by faith in Christ. Paul knew that trusting in Christ will transformed the sinner from the inside out, giving him a new heart capable of true love, therefore Paul [or God through Paul] commanded the jailer to believe [trust] in the Lord Jesus Christ.
3) faith is the result of loving God?
Love is the result of a renewed and purified heart by faith alone in Christ alone
We love Him because we have appropriated the truth by faith that He first loved us, that He gave Himself for us.
4) The whole idea that some christians subscribe to - salvation by faith not works/deeds - is a lie or at best a half truth.
Please notice the word "by" in verse 8 and the word "for" in verse 10 below. We are saved BY grace through faith......not of works but FOR good works.
Paul said that:
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
[/b]
faith first, then comes love and righteosness -
u dun have the holy spirit mahOriginally posted by Icemoon:The words of Paul and Christ sound contradicting at times.
Sorry, I mean the words of the gospel authors (presenting the words of Jesus) and those of Apostle Paul sound contradicting at times. -
if the holy spirit can lead a charismatic pastor to say one thing and a reformed pastor to say another thing, then I rather not.Originally posted by laoda99:u dun have the holy spirit mah -
u know....sometimes i guess instincts to survive can override what u are taught.....Originally posted by Icemoon:if the holy spirit can lead a charismatic pastor to say one thing and a reformed pastor to say another thing, then I rather not. -
And to add on...
There are many hurdles to become a pastor in mainstream denominations...
like the Presbyterian church, u are not immediately ordained after you get the MA or the BA....
My friend at TTC updated me on how they were being tested......and it really is not easy.......when u pass out from TTC it ensures that u are theologically sound..... -
Actually some seminaries are rather liberal.Originally posted by laoda99:u know....sometimes i guess instincts to survive can override what u are taught..... -
I don't agree.Originally posted by dumbdumb!:Deeds come later, when your own love for God compels you to do deeds for him, such as sharing the gospel, serving the church, to even giving up your seat in the bus to an elderly, to honour God. It's a natural process, as love conquers your heart, and overflows, you will automatically love others.
That's why again, the bible says, Love is the most important of all.
anyone agrees?
Because one can love God and others without having faith. -
Actually, TTC is quite liberal....they let u read all sort of anti-Christian literature.....Originally posted by Icemoon:Actually some seminaries are rather liberal.
The ones who can pass out from TTC are the strong ones.... -
I wonder TTC has caused how many people to backslide.Originally posted by laoda99:Actually, TTC is quite liberal....they let u read all sort of anti-Christian literature.....
The ones who can pass out from TTC are the strong ones.... -
They have.Originally posted by Icemoon:I wonder TTC has caused how many people to backslide.
And anyway, once u pass out from TTC not easy also. Some denominations required u to master a language, such as hebrew/greek. If not, u cannot be ordained.
Thus I believe mainstream denomination pastors are tested and more theologically sound. -
wah ... I out for a few days... here so much happening ....
ok ...
(In Christian context)
Without faith, one can neither please nor love God.
explaination seems very clear here, I think...
Heb 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
Is Salvation by faith alone? yes, but this faith have to be upon the finished work of Christ on the cross and nothing else.
If our works can add on to what Christ had done, are we saying His work is not completed? and that we need to finish it for Him?
No, of course not, how can our imperfect work add or substract from His perfectly completed work?
Salvation is by faith in Christ alone, period. good deeds/works comes after this through the grace that comes to us from God after having being made right with God through faith in Christ.
peace ... -
This I agree with you, went to their website before (was pondering about doing some course there), see their prospectus and I was likeOriginally posted by laoda99:Actually, TTC is quite liberal....they let u read all sort of anti-Christian literature.....
The ones who can pass out from TTC are the strong ones....
, so high standard... -
Master a language? I know they take biblical language modules inside, but that is not equivalent to mastering a language. In university, even after completing Jap 4, you also won't dare to say you have mastered Japanese. Tell that to the nihon-jins and they will laugh at you.Originally posted by laoda99:They have.
And anyway, once u pass out from TTC not easy also. Some denominations required u to master a language, such as hebrew/greek. If not, u cannot be ordained.
Thus I believe mainstream denomination pastors are tested and more theologically sound.
I wonder which denominations you are referring to. I'd love to see a pastor read the Torah to me.