Some sick babies must be allowed to die, says Church
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good to hear that SIS....
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it is quite obvious that i am not a very kind man...Originally posted by M©+square:
Apparently, Icemoon and unker vincy and others still havin hopes? -
x2Originally posted by Chin Eng:it is quite obvious that i am not a very kind man... 
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
what credibility.... 
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i saidOriginally posted by M©+square:Thanks for the info fudgey.
Good to see you around
Just hate insensitive comments made and play hit n run.
Wait and see.
They dont need a lot of needles or treatment or therapy.
and talk about insensitive comments...
Anyways, i was still wrong to say what i said about down syndrome people. Didnt do much research and anyhow made a statement. Apologies -
Originally posted by davidche:
You said. They dont need a lot of needles or treatment or therapy
i said
They dont need[b] a lot of needles or treatment or therapy.
and talk about insensitive comments...
Anyways, i was still wrong to say what i said about down syndrome people. Didnt do much research and anyhow made a statement. Apologies[/b]
I asked back
ARE YOU SURE!!!!!?????
So what's your answer?
Sure or not sure? -
Originally posted by M©+square:
My statement is too general.
You said. They dont need[b] a lot of needles or treatment or therapy
I asked back
ARE YOU SURE!!!!!?????
So what's your answer?
Sure or not sure?[/b]
but since you want the answer, sure, sure. -
Originally posted by M©+square:
It's down to what you understand by 'a lot' or 'common'. Take congenital heart disease as example, because Down syndrome is the most common cause of syndromic congenital cardiac disease.
You said. They dont need[b] a lot of needles or treatment or therapy
I asked back
ARE YOU SURE!!!!!?????
So what's your answer?
Sure or not sure?[/b]
About 40% of patients with Down's syndrome have congenital heart disease of some sort. One study showed that the birth prevalence of congenital heart disease was 8.8/1000 live births (n = 231). Of these, 9% had recognised chromosomal anomalies 0.80/1000 live births, mainly due to Down's syndrome. (Int J Cardiol. 1999 Feb 28;68(2):151-6.)
In other words, the majority of children with Down's syndrome do not have congenital heart disease and that holds true of other congenital abnormalities as well (the risk of mental retardation is more than 95% by comparison), although as a group, the risk is much higher than that in the general population.
The most common form of congenital heart disease in Down's syndrome is an isolated ventricular septum, which is easily corrected by a single operation in most cases. If the need for treatment and needles is the criterion for deciding whether or not to abort a baby, then those with thalassaemia (a common blood disease requiring monthly transfusions) should be aborted. -
Thanks for the information.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:It's down to what you understand by 'a lot' or 'common'. Take congenital heart disease as example, because Down syndrome is the most common cause of syndromic congenital cardiac disease.
About 40% of patients with Down's syndrome have congenital heart disease of some sort. One study showed that the birth prevalence of congenital heart disease was 8.8/1000 live births (n = 231). Of these, 9% had recognised chromosomal anomalies 0.80/1000 live births, mainly due to Down's syndrome. (Int J Cardiol. 1999 Feb 28;68(2):151-6.)
In other words, the majority of children with Down's syndrome do not have congenital heart disease and that holds true of other congenital abnormalities as well (the risk of mental retardation is more than 95% by comparison), although as a group, the risk is much higher than that in the general population.
The most common form of congenital heart disease in Down's syndrome is an isolated ventricular septum, which is easily corrected by a single operation in most cases. If the need for treatment and needles is the criterion for deciding whether or not to abort a baby, then those with thalassaemia (a common blood disease requiring monthly transfusions) should be aborted.
How about the therapy and treatments these children have to go through as they are mentally handicapped?
What i understand, parents have to take time to go through every medical check up as well as therapies with their child and expenses for these are almost unbearable. -
Dr Mushroom,Originally posted by oxford mushroom:It's down to what you understand by 'a lot' or 'common'. Take congenital heart disease as example, because Down syndrome is the most common cause of syndromic congenital cardiac disease.
About 40% of patients with Down's syndrome have congenital heart disease of some sort. One study showed that the birth prevalence of congenital heart disease was 8.8/1000 live births (n = 231). Of these, 9% had recognised chromosomal anomalies 0.80/1000 live births, mainly due to Down's syndrome. (Int J Cardiol. 1999 Feb 28;68(2):151-6.)
In other words, the majority of children with Down's syndrome do not have congenital heart disease and that holds true of other congenital abnormalities as well (the risk of mental retardation is more than 95% by comparison), although as a group, the risk is much higher than that in the general population.
The most common form of congenital heart disease in Down's syndrome is an isolated ventricular septum, which is easily corrected by a single operation in most cases. If the need for treatment and needles is the criterion for deciding whether or not to abort a baby, then those with thalassaemia (a common blood disease requiring monthly transfusions) should be aborted.
What about those Down's syndrome babies with thalassaemia minor? -
I glean from Judaism that we shouldn't give up hope.Originally posted by M©+square:
Apparently, Icemoon and unker vincy and others still havin hopes?
As an analogy, if your house is burning, do you give up hope and 'eye-power' or do you try to salvage as much as possible?
Judaism also tells of another story. Two men are on a small boat, let's call them dave and mc.
mc: what do you think you are doing?!
dave: I'm drilling a hole under my seat.
mc: you siao!
dave: shhh .. dun disturb me .. I didn't drill your seat .. shout for fark?
mc: *speechless*
Moral of the story - we are in this together, I can't let my neighbor zi shen zi mie. -
I can only prevent some people from committing suicide sometime.Originally posted by Icemoon:Moral of the story - we are in this together, I can't let my neighbor zi shen zi mie.
I cannot prevent these people from committing suicide all the time.
If I cannot prevent some people from zi shen zi mie.... then I might just sell tickets for all to see -
Popcorns and coke on me
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Oh yes, I am not saying for a moment that it is a breeze to have a child with Down's syndrome. In Singapore, having Down's syndrome can be much worse than having thalassaemia, although there won't be as great a need for needles. In a knowledge-based economy, thalassaemia patients can theoretically work and earn a good salary to pay their medical bills. They can have an almost normal lifespan if they can afford the chelating agent required to bind excess iron in their bodies, which will eventually kill them. The drug costs about 1k a month.Originally posted by M©+square:Thanks for the information.
How about the therapy and treatments these children have to go through as they are mentally handicapped?
What i understand, parents have to take time to go through every medical check up as well as therapies with their child and expenses for these are almost unbearable.
If you can afford it, a child with thalassaemia today will almost definitely grow up into adulthood and may be able to earn enough to be independent. If you cannot afford the drugs, he will die in late teens or early adulthood. A child with Down syndrome will almost never be independent but he will grow up to adulthood. The problem is, who will support him when you are dead and gone? Will siblings take over the responsibility?
Of course, there is a possibility of a bone marrow transplant for thalassaemia but you have to accept the high mortality risk, although many people are going for it nowadays. -
Thal minor are mostly asymptomatic and do not require treatment. A thal minor with a qualitative haemoglobinopathy eg. sickle cell anaemia or HbE disease have a more serious illness and will require some transfusions, although not as severe as thal major.Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:Dr Mushroom,
What about those Down's syndrome babies with thalassaemia minor? -
this is akin to euthenasia. if the baby cld talk and asks to be put out of her suffering, it shld be done as she asks.
but i dont know if the church practices euthenasia
another thing to consider is her chances of recovery and the likelihood of her suffering getting better or worse -
And my question to david was, is he sure that down syndrome child do not need alot of needles, therapy and treatment.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:Oh yes, I am not saying for a moment that it is a breeze to have a child with Down's syndrome. In Singapore, having Down's syndrome can be much worse than having thalassaemia, although there won't be as great a need for needles. In a knowledge-based economy, thalassaemia patients can theoretically work and earn a good salary to pay their medical bills. They can have an almost normal lifespan if they can afford the chelating agent required to bind excess iron in their bodies, which will eventually kill them. The drug costs about 1k a month.
If you can afford it, a child with thalassaemia today will almost definitely grow up into adulthood and may be able to earn enough to be independent. If you cannot afford the drugs, he will die in late teens or early adulthood. A child with Down syndrome will almost never be independent but he will grow up to adulthood. The problem is, who will support him when you are dead and gone? Will siblings take over the responsibility?
Of course, there is a possibility of a bone marrow transplant for thalassaemia but you have to accept the high mortality risk, although many people are going for it nowadays.
Thanks for the info once again..... -
Summary and lesson learnt:Originally posted by M©+square:And my question to david was, is he sure that down syndrome child do not need alot of needles, therapy and treatment. Thanks for the info once again.....
- Be objective when making a statement
- do some research
- Down syndrome child need a lot of needles, therapy and treatment.
yea, thanks for the info mush. -
congrats... you have finally learnt how to write. keep it up.Originally posted by davidche:Summary and lesson learnt:
- Be objective when making a statement
- do some research
- Down syndrome child need a lot of needles, therapy and treatment.
yea, thanks for the info mush. -
Mushroom's answer is very practical.
The biggest problem for a down syndrome child is the care giving, especially if after the parents have passed on. -
Honestly I doubt your 'good intentions'. Since you have posted before how you like starting controversial arguements. Your manner of 'arguing' does not seem like belonging to someone with the intention of "educating". Quite simply, I see you as the type to argue for the sake or arguing.Originally posted by stupidissmart:If I wanna find loopholes, I can find a ton here such as "god made the baby disabled, yet we wanna oppose god will" or "is the stand listed the same as abortion for severely disabled babies and actually allow abortion now" etc But I support the church to face reality and not stick to doctrine stubbornly and cause needless problems and suffering
Of course this is my personal opinion. Then again, I'm sure many here feel the same way.
It's not about how you are "of a different nature" hence the group finds it hard to understand you. But your having a reputation is not simply because you're different, but as to how you're different.
Enough about you now, let the topic continue. -
You just can't seem to let go of SIS huh?Originally posted by SumOne:Honestly I doubt your 'good intentions'. Since you have posted before how you like starting controversial arguements. Your manner of 'arguing' does not seem like belonging to someone with the intention of "educating". Quite simply, I see you as the type to argue for the sake or arguing.
Of course this is my personal opinion. Then again, I'm sure many here feel the same way.
It's not about how you are "of a different nature" hence the group finds it hard to understand you. But your having a reputation is not simply because you're different, but as to how you're different.
Enough about you now, let the topic continue.
Yes, finally.
Enough of him.