Why Do God Have To Create (The Devil - Satan) and humans
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Fine, prove me wrong then. Explain to TS using the bible why God have to create Lucifer. And don't drag right-wing Judaism into it.Originally posted by Icemoon:You then are wrong.
If God cannot foresee your decision .. where is the basis for election? Does God throw dice to decide who is th elect and who is not?
/me drags Skibi into hardcore theology. -
If you want the Christian explanation .. there is no explanation. Period.Originally posted by Skibi:Fine, prove me wrong then. Explain to TS using the bible why God have to create Lucifer. And don't drag right-wing Judaism into it.
But if anyone wants to know God and the reason for His actions, I'll be glad to share my 2 cents.
I dunno what is left or right wing Judaism. I only know you, Skibi, know nuts about Judaism.
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And please .. we havent even ask you to leave manga out of the discussion.
The pot calling the kettle black?
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perhaps he is christian gnosticOriginally posted by Icemoon:His views aren't very orthodox to me. Not Jewish, not Protestant, not Catholic.
I dunno which group to put him.
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gnosticism is a very big group, not limiting to Christianity.Originally posted by solomon1983:perhaps he is christian gnostic
I know a bit about Christian gnostic also, from my study of the Gospel of Judas.
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Originally posted by Icemoon:
I believe some christians just can't handle cold logic. They want to stay warm and comfortable in thinking that God is omniscient. In monotheism, this ability is often typically attributed to God, but appears nowhere in the Bible or the Koran - wikipedia on omniscience.
If you want the Christian explanation .. there is no explanation. Period.
But if anyone wants to know God and the reason for His actions, I'll be glad to share my 2 cents.
I dunno what is left or right wing Judaism. I only know you, Skibi, know nuts about Judaism. -
I'd say depends on your definition. What do you expect of an omniscent being?Originally posted by Skibi:I believe some christians just can't handle cold logic. They want to stay warm and comfortable in thinking that God is omniscient. In monotheism, this ability is often typically attributed to God, but appears nowhere in the Bible or the Koran - wikipedia on omniscience. -
congrate...congrateOriginally posted by Icemoon:gnosticism is a very big group, not limiting to Christianity.
I know a bit about Christian gnostic also, from my study of the Gospel of Judas. 
soon you will join the big G gnosticism...ermmm...hmmm... you are
christian gnostic
silly i am..blind am i..someone told me you are... -
Skibi is buddhist gnostic ....ermm...hmmm -
One particular branch of Christian gnosticism stands out - Sethian gnosticism. They even have their own version of "Trinity".
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And supported with text from the bible -Originally posted by Skibi:I believe some christians just can't handle cold logic. They want to stay warm and comfortable in thinking that God is omniscient. In monotheism, this ability is often typically attributed to God, but appears nowhere in the Bible or the Koran - wikipedia on omniscience.
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But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,[b] but the Father only.
- Matthew 24:36
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If God were omniscient and could foretell the future he would know the coming of the son of man. Yet he doesn't because the Father doesn't tell him. As part of the trinity Father and Son are equal in power. Here, God has clearly left the decision making to the Father and knows not what the Father decides as he cannot foretell the future and is not omniscient. -
Wrong lah.Originally posted by Skibi:And supported with text from the bible -
"
But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son,[b] but the Father only.
- Matthew 24:36
"
If God were omniscient and could foretell the future he would know the coming of the son of man. Yet he doesn't because the Father doesn't tell him. As part of the trinity Father and Son are equal in power. Here, God has clearly left the decision making to the Father and knows not what the Father decides as he cannot foretell the future and is not omniscient.
Maybe Jesus isn't the second Godhead in the Trinity. -
God's omniscience is a very difficult subject to touch on. It touches on something we, as humans, will never understand.
I will try to share my view.
Being omniscient means knowing all things, even things beyond human reasoning. God doesn't predict the future. He does know the future based on the path His creation has chosen. It is based on an action and consequence relationship.
When Man fell, He knows the full plan of Salvation for Man. And He chose to reveal it to us.
When Satan chose to act against God, He knows Satan will ultimately be brought to judgment. This is revealed in Revelations. In this sense, it is not "predicting" but revealing His will. And what He says, it will come to past. -
There is one line of argument that supports Skibi's point of view.Originally posted by sillyme:When Man fell, He knows the full plan of Salvation for Man. And He chose to reveal it to us.
When Satan chose to act against God, He knows Satan will ultimately be brought to judgment. This is revealed in Revelations. In this sense, it is not "predicting" but revealing His will. And what He says, it will come to past.
Can Satan thwart God's plan? As the archangel of God, surely he knew God's attributes more than any mortal.
God's omniscience also poses a problem for believers - the familiar why the tree was in the garden problem.
Take it one level higher - God knew He has to sacrifice His Son even before mankind was created. (c.f. the covenant of redemption)
machiam like zi bian zi dao zi yan drama. -
Unless Satan knows more than God, he surely will fail in all attempts right?Originally posted by Icemoon:There is one line of argument that supports Skibi's point of view.
Can Satan thwart God's plan? As the archangel of God, surely he knew God's attributes more than any mortal.
God's omniscience also poses a problem for believers - the familiar why the tree was in the garden problem.
Take it one level higher - God knew He has to sacrifice His Son even before mankind was created. (c.f. the covenant of redemption)
machiam like zi bian zi dao zi yan drama.
I do not have a full view of God's plan. But I can see that even in Man's fall, we can see His compassionate and forgiving nature. We can also see He is a just God; we are to face up to the mistakes we make.
I believe God does not want us to be mindless creatures. He wants us to grow as creatures with indepedant thinking, yet fully dependant on Him for sustenance. That is why He planted the tree and placed us in the garden.
p.s. I don't use Mangas to study about God
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god don't decide what happen next but he can FOREsee what happen nextOriginally posted by Skibi:You are wrong. God gave you the power of choice to choose your master. This choice wouldn't be valid if God can foresee who you will choose.
or else he is not god -
Did God foresee this argument in theology?Originally posted by ghimpheng:god don't decide what happen next but he can FOREsee what happen next
or else he is not god -
If fail still go and do? If Jesus cannot be tempted, still go and tempt him?Originally posted by sillyme:Unless Satan knows more than God, he surely will fail in all attempts right?
Skibi might be right .. Satan has a triumph card in his sleeves. -
Because we think we can be greater than God mah. Pride inflates the ego, prevents us from rational thinking.Originally posted by Icemoon:If fail still go and do? If Jesus cannot be tempted, still go and tempt him?
Skibi might be right .. Satan has a triumph card in his sleeves. -
It can't be Satan has the inflated ego from the time he rebelled until now right?Originally posted by sillyme:Because we think we can be greater than God mah. Pride inflates the ego, prevents us from rational thinking.
A bit long leh.
Furthermore this only applies to mankind who is fallen and distanced from God. We can't see God, so we assume God is dead. But if you are the archangel who constantly basked in the Shekinah of God, there is nothing but fear and obedience. -
A related question is will Christians still sin when they go heaven?
Logically .. why not? As long as there is free will and choice .. you will sin.
Well .. Satan sinned even in the presence of the Shekinah. How can you be with God eternally and won't sin? -
Maybe Satan is just stubborn?Originally posted by Icemoon:It can't be Satan has the inflated ego from the time he rebelled until now right?
A bit long leh.
Furthermore this only applies to mankind who is fallen and distanced from God. We can't see God, so we assume God is dead. But if you are the archangel who constantly basked in the Shekinah of God, there is nothing but fear and obedience.
It is beyond me why he is still unrepentant. Perhaps, he knows he already condemned and judgment will eventually come. And until then perhaps he intends to drag everyone down as many as he can.
But all this is just my guess only. -
Good guess .. I can't fault you on this.Originally posted by sillyme:Maybe Satan is just stubborn?
It is beyond me why he is still unrepentant. Perhaps, he knows he already condemned and judgment will eventually come. And until then perhaps he intends to drag everyone down as many as he can.
But all this is just my guess only.
So Satan is a tragic character lah. For him, there can be no turning back. Whereas mankind have salvation, angels don't have.
How come nobody pity him?
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obviously the parable of the prodigal son doesn't apply to him.
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It doesn't apply to Angels (Fallen or unfallen)Originally posted by Icemoon:obviously the parable of the prodigal son doesn't apply to him.