Why Do God Have To Create (The Devil - Satan) and humans
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Originally posted by Icemoon:
Where in the bible does it say this? IIRC humans evil or good can't stand the full power of God because their flesh is mortal. The bible does not say anything about angels. The fact that Lucifer still has his powers means that he is still immortal ( or near immortal ) and thus able to withstand the presence of God.
To anyone who still harbors the silly idea that Satan is the Evil .. please tell me how could Satan stand before God unscathed and unharmed in the Book of Job?
Can the evil and wicked stand before the Creator? Is he fit to stand before the Creator?
Wouldn't the [b]shekinah of God kill him instantly?
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IMO whether good of evil has nothing to do with withstanding the presence/power of God. It has to do with our physical mortal bodies unable to take the stress of such power. -
Icemoon totally misunderstood?
Yeah, i think so.
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Oh .. so you mean the power is limited and so an immortal or near immortal body can withstand it? Probably Lucifer was thinking, haha you can't kill me with your power, stupid Elohim.Originally posted by Skibi:Where in the bible does it say this? IIRC humans evil or good can't stand the full power of God because their flesh is mortal. The bible does not say anything about angels. The fact that Lucifer still has his powers means that he is still immortal ( or near immortal ) and thus able to withstand the presence of God.
IMO whether good of evil has nothing to do with withstanding the presence/power of God. It has to do with our physical mortal bodies unable to take the stress of such power.
I don't agree with your argument. Didn't Ezekiel saw the Shekinah of God with his mortal body? He saw the Shekinah, complete with the heavenly entourage. Moses only saw what?
IMHO .. you are the one who is mistaken.
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By the way .. to say that angels cannot be killed is a clear violation of God's omnipotentcy.
There is no need to ask whether God can lift a rock He has created. No need to go into hypothetical scenarios not described in the Bible.
Non believers should ask whether angels can be killed by God. It is a yes or no answer. -
Have some faith in me lah.Originally posted by M©+square:
Icemoon totally misunderstood?
Yeah, i think so. 
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oops.Originally posted by Icemoon:Have some faith in me lah.
It's meant to be
'Icemoon was totally misunderstood'
The reply was meant for skibi. Sorrie.....
One missing word changed the whole meaning. English.....
Can i edit my earlier post now? -
Oh I see .. phew.Originally posted by M©+square:oops.
It's meant to be
'Icemoon was totally misunderstood'
The reply was meant for skibi. Sorrie.....
One missing word changed the whole meaning. English.....
Can i edit my earlier post now?
There is no need to change your earlier post. It wasn't offensive anyway.
We all make mistakes and you have set the record straight. -
I was puzzled why skibi's post have strange terms which was brought over from his hellsing manga thread?Originally posted by Icemoon:Oh I see .. phew.
There is no need to change your earlier post. It wasn't offensive anyway.
We all make mistakes and you have set the record straight.
I whole idea isn't all wrong. But it sounded weird. -
His views aren't very orthodox to me. Not Jewish, not Protestant, not Catholic.
I dunno which group to put him. -
the manga group?Originally posted by Icemoon:His views aren't very orthodox to me. Not Jewish, not Protestant, not Catholic.
I dunno which group to put him.
It rather unsound to me. -
Do not limit the power of God. God can control his power output when in the presence of his faithful or as and when he wills it. Contrast these examples:Originally posted by Icemoon:Oh .. so you mean the power is limited and so an immortal or near immortal body can withstand it? Probably Lucifer was thinking, haha you can't kill me with your power, stupid Elohim.
I don't agree with your argument. Didn't Ezekiel saw the Shekinah of God with his mortal body? He saw the Shekinah, complete with the heavenly entourage. Moses only saw what?
IMHO .. you are the one who is mistaken.
1. Jacob wrestling with God. He didn't know it was God initially.
2. The angel sent to roll away the stone at Jesus' tomb. The roman soldiers were 'struck down' by the power of a mere angel.
Needless to say if God unveils his full power before mortals, they will be obliterated. Think of it as reitsu. In the bleach manga when Yamamoto(sp?) unleashed his full reiatsu only full captains could withstand its power without dying. However in ordinary times his reiatsu is kept hidden - so you don't have lesser shinigami's dying left and right. Plus it is natural to unleash power when fighting enemies right? Thus the misconception that only good people can stand in God's presence - the fact is half true, but the logic behind it is entirely different.
In the bible, Lucifer was the second in command to God. The bible says nothing about Lucifer's powers being diminished after he was cast out from heaven. Therefore i have no problems with him being able to stand in the presence of God.
But make no mistake, God's power compared to Lucifer is like heaven and earth. God can kill Lucifer with but a thought at whim.
Edit: The idea that evil can't stand in the presence of holiness has no basis in the bible. In fact it is particularly distasteful as it does have some pagan origins. Vampires afraid of the holy cross/bible/water etc... -
Originally posted by Skibi:
Mc2 .. please call the ambulance for me.
Do not limit the power of God. God can control his power output when in the presence of his faithful or as and when he wills it. Contrast these examples:
1. Jacob wrestling with God. He didn't know it was God initially.
2. The angel sent to roll away the stone at Jesus' tomb. The roman soldiers were 'struck down' by the power of a mere angel.
Needless to say if God unveils his full power before mortals, they will be obliterated. Think of it as reitsu. In the bleach manga when Yamamoto(sp?) unleashed his full reiatsu only full captains could withstand its power without dying. However in ordinary times his reiatsu is kept hidden - so you don't have lesser shinigami's dying left and right. Plus it is natural to unleash power when fighting enemies right? Thus the misconception that only good people can stand in God's presence - the fact is half true, but the logic behind it is entirely different.
In the bible, Lucifer was the [b]second in command to God. The bible says nothing about Lucifer's powers being diminished after he was cast out from heaven. Therefore i have no problems with him being able to stand in the presence of God.
But make no mistake, God's power compared to Lucifer is like heaven and earth. God can kill Lucifer but with but a thought at whim.
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Lucifer second in command to God? I'm sorry .. but this is heresy .. where you read it from? PROVE IT! -
Yah, this guy is off liao.Originally posted by Icemoon:Mc2 .. please call the ambulance for me.
Lucifer second in command to God? I'm sorry .. but this is heresy .. where you read it from? PROVE IT!
In his own world. -
Qiang ci duo li.Originally posted by Skibi:Do not limit the power of God. God can control his power output when in the presence of his faithful or as and when he wills it. Contrast these examples:
1. Jacob wrestling with God. He didn't know it was God initially.
2. The angel sent to roll away the stone at Jesus' tomb. The roman soldiers were 'struck down' by the power of a mere angel.
I was talking about the Shekinah of God. You tell me the westler for what?
Is the wrestler the Shekinah of God? -
It is not only that.Originally posted by Skibi:Edit: The idea that evil can't stand in the presence of holiness has no basis in the bible. In fact it is particularly distasteful as it does have some pagan origins. Vampires afraid of the holy cross/bible/water etc...
The question arises why would God even want to entertain a rebel in His own territory?
Instead of asking "where have you been" .. shouldn't God say "guards .. arrest this rebel!"?
You read so many manga dunno meh? Which king so nice will yum cha with a rebel? And which rebel can ba long long stroll to his nemesis one? -
You misunderstand the intentions of God. God is not a petty king whose sole aim is the destruction of Lucifer. Remember God can kill Lucifer with a thought no matter how far away or near he is.Originally posted by Icemoon:It is not only that.
The question arises why would God even want to entertain a rebel in His own territory?
Instead of asking "where have you been" .. shouldn't God say "guards .. arrest this rebel!"?
You read so many manga dunno meh? Which king so nice will yum cha with a rebel? And which rebel can ba long long stroll to his nemesis one?
Rather, God's aim is to prove that his ways and ideals are noble compared to Lucifer's. Thus he allow's Lucifer to "test" Job. The resulting dialogue recorded enables us to have more insight on both God and Lucifer's characters. -
Your argument itself has pagan origins.Originally posted by Skibi:Edit: The idea that evil can't stand in the presence of holiness has no basis in the bible. In fact it is particularly distasteful as it does have some pagan origins. Vampires afraid of the holy cross/bible/water etc...
Who tell you the cross or bible or water is holy one? -
Originally posted by Skibi:
And why did Lucifer go and find God? Nothing better to do?
You misunderstand the intentions of God. God is not a petty king whose sole aim is the destruction of Lucifer. Remember God can kill Lucifer with a thought [b]no matter how far away or near he is.
Rather, God's aim is to prove that his ways and ideals are noble compared to Lucifer's. Thus he allow's Lucifer to "test" Job. The resulting dialogue recorded enables us to have more insight on both God and Lucifer's characters.[/b] -
Originally posted by Skibi:
If so .. then why did God banish Lucifer and his minions from heaven?
You misunderstand the intentions of God. God is not a petty king whose sole aim is the destruction of Lucifer. Remember God can kill Lucifer with a thought [b]no matter how far away or near he is.[/b]
God afraid Lucifer assassinate him issit? -
Originally posted by Skibi:
if he can't maybe he is not god
God never said he could foretell the future 100% in the bible. IMO the idea that God can foresee the future is a [b]pagan view. Lucifer wants people to believe this idea so that they will see God as the source of evil.
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OopsOriginally posted by ghimpheng:if he can't maybe he is not god
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You are wrong. God gave you the power of choice to choose your master. This choice wouldn't be valid if God can foresee who you will choose.Originally posted by ghimpheng:if he can't maybe he is not god -
I dont think you can take your human understanding or reasoning to be something so absolute. It may be wrong.Originally posted by Skibi:You are wrong. God gave you the power of choice to choose your master. This choice wouldn't be valid if God can foresee who you will choose. -
You then are wrong.Originally posted by Skibi:You are wrong. God gave you the power of choice to choose your master. This choice wouldn't be valid if God can foresee who you will choose.
If God cannot foresee your decision .. where is the basis for election? Does God throw dice to decide who is th elect and who is not?
/me drags Skibi into hardcore theology. -
Mc2 .. I can't tell the diff between election and predestination leh .. how?
Never mind lah .. Skibi doesn't either.