You can be a "Born Christian" ?
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I think they dont even teach any theology. All they do is take a bible story, then summarise and say what can be learnt.Originally posted by Icemoon:But Sunday School is like a church kindergarten operating on Sunday right?
Furthermore the things taught won't be too deep and they are sometimes not theologically correct. -
If you ask me .. I say the message preached is the most important.
Whatever is preached usually set the guideline for what is taught in bible study classes. And it will set the direction for the church.
Like the chinese saying, the top pillar not straight the bottom pillar will be crooked. -
exactly!Originally posted by davidche:I think they dont even teach any theology. All they do is take a bible story, then summarise and say what can be learnt.
The point of Sunday School is just to keep the kids occupied with the correct stuffs. -
Investment should be on the adults.
If the church "churns" out good Christian adults .. they will make sure the correct Christian values are imparted to the family.
What for invest on kids? I bet some of them grow up will backslide (if they are baptised) or join another religion (if not baptised).
Of course I'm not saying the kids should be ignored. SS teachers should try their best, but don't place too much hope.
PS: by investing on adults .. you are training potential people to be SS teachers also .. think about it. -
Originally posted by Icemoon:But Sunday School is like a church kindergarten operating on Sunday right?
Furthermore the things taught won't be too deep and they are sometimes not theologically correct.Originally posted by davidche:I think they dont even teach any theology. All they do is take a bible story, then summarise and say what can be learnt.
Unfortunately I think that this is a very narrow point of view of SS. While agreeing that it is true at the lower levels, eg Pre nursery, to may be P2, the higher level should be a different ball game altogether.Originally posted by Icemoon:exactly!
The point of Sunday School is just to keep the kids occupied with the correct stuffs.
While, up to a point, it is a baby sitting session for the kids when their parents are worshipping, the purpose of SS is deeper than that. Beyond teaching the hour or so of lessons, SS serves as a background for the parents to carry on. Again, if the parents do not carry on from where SS left off, then it is still the parent's fault. Beyond that, we hope to inculcate a desire to learn more from the Bible.
Yes SS talks about Bible story and summaries them, however, like everything else in church, a lot of the quality depends on the quality of the teachers. When I was running the show, I explicitly instructed the teachers of the higher level to challenge the students into deeper thinking. For example, my teachers (especially the P5 and 6) would be talking about the influences of satanism, the influences of the media as well as conflicts of their christian faith and their environment. In order for me to achieve what I want to achieve, I purposely chose very good and spiritually strong teachers to be in the senior classes.
Beyond my ministry, there is also SS for the secondary level (which is not take care by me). These classes are actually quite chim.
So I sincerely appreciate that the readers to not have such a bleak view of the SS ministry. -
Im afraid i have a 'bleak view' of SS because i consider secondarys 'SS', cell groups or bible study groups. They no more, as far as i have joined, function by one teacher and other children listeners. They work as groups, and discussing together, with a group leader leading the discussion.Originally posted by Chin Eng:Unfortunately I think that this is a very narrow point of view of SS. While agreeing that it is true at the lower levels, eg Pre nursery, to may be P2, the higher level should be a different ball game altogether.
While, up to a point, it is a baby sitting session for the kids when their parents are worshipping, the purpose of SS is deeper than that. Beyond teaching the hour or so of lessons, SS serves as a background for the parents to carry on. Again, if the parents do not carry on from where SS left off, then it is still the parent's fault. Beyond that, we hope to inculcate a desire to learn more from the Bible.
Yes SS talks about Bible story and summaries them, however, like everything else in church, a lot of the quality depends on the quality of the teachers. When I was running the show, I explicitly instructed the teachers of the higher level to challenge the students into deeper thinking. For example, my teachers (especially the P5 and 6) would be talking about the influences of satanism, the influences of the media as well as conflicts of their christian faith and their environment. In order for me to achieve what I want to achieve, I purposely chose very good and spiritually strong teachers to be in the senior classes.
Beyond my ministry, there is also SS for the secondary level (which is not take care by me). These classes are actually quite chim.
So I sincerely appreciate that the readers to not have such a bleak view of the SS ministry.
They start to adapt to modern society teenagers, who hate having SS like a lecture or typical lesson in school.
thats just what i think. I agree with you generally.
Cheers -
That's because Unker Eng is running the show.Originally posted by Chin Eng:Yes SS talks about Bible story and summaries them, however, like everything else in church, a lot of the quality depends on the quality of the teachers. When I was running the show, I explicitly instructed the teachers of the higher level to challenge the students into deeper thinking. For example, my teachers (especially the P5 and 6) would be talking about the influences of satanism, the influences of the media as well as conflicts of their christian faith and their environment. In order for me to achieve what I want to achieve, I purposely chose very good and spiritually strong teachers to be in the senior classes.
Come on .. I'm not surprised some SS ban Harry Potter altogether and won't even want to discuss media influences.
So the teachers do nothing other than summarising bible stories and keeping the kids occupied. -
It's a Catch-22 situation mah.
You can "invest" in the adults, but not everyone will accept all the teachings regarding disciplining children. And if ill-disciplined children are not put in Sunday school, they tend to distract the sermons. Then Sunday service loses it's effectiveness.
I think every level must share the same vision and hunger for God. The parents must know their importance in raising up Godly children. The church leadership must recongnise the importance of Sunday school and train up teachers. These teachers must see the importance of their work in raising Godly children. The parents teach and guide their children at home, the Sunday school teachers reinforce the same values.
We must set these children apart, so that they may grow up in God's holiness.
Hence we must work as a Body. We cannot rely on just one part to work and expect things to work. -
I hope you're commenting this on the basis of knowing the Dynamics of Youths.Originally posted by Icemoon:Investment should be on the adults.
If the church "churns" out good Christian adults .. they will make sure the correct Christian values are imparted to the family.
What for invest on kids? I bet some of them grow up will backslide (if they are baptised) or join another religion (if not baptised).
Of course I'm not saying the kids should be ignored. SS teachers should try their best, but don't place too much hope.
PS: by investing on adults .. you are training potential people to be SS teachers also .. think about it.
It's two edged.
I personally will go to youth ministry first, when i go visit a church.
It will tell me about the condition of the church through the attitude of the youths.
I believe in the youths.
Gam pei -
Not all congregation have a strong youth ministry. Some are catered more for adults .. like the Filipino congregation or the hokkien congregation.Originally posted by M©+square:I hope you're commenting this on the basis of knowing the Dynamics of Youths.
It's two edged.
I personally will go to youth ministry first, when i go visit a church.
It will tell me about the condition of the church through the attitude of the youths.
I believe in the youths.
Gam pei
Congregations seldom mix and they often disagree with each other. -
The SS is often a training ground for future leaders of the church.Originally posted by sillyme:I think every level must share the same vision and hunger for God. The parents must know their importance in raising up Godly children. The church leadership must recongnise the importance of Sunday school and train up teachers. These teachers must see the importance of their work in raising Godly children. The parents teach and guide their children at home, the Sunday school teachers reinforce the same values.
You have young adults who are passionate about the Word of God. So they read up during their spare time. The SS is a good place for them to share their abundant knowledge and train their leadership qualities.
So it is quite funny lah. You train up teachers for SS, but actually a lot of people are trained through SS. -
Sunday School is not church kindergarten, it is church education ministry. In all Baptist Churches, Sunday School is held before or after worship service, all Christians, should attend Sunday School, it is said that "if you are not a teacher, then you must be a student".Originally posted by Icemoon:But Sunday School is like a church kindergarten operating on Sunday right?
Furthermore the things taught won't be too deep and they are sometimes not theologically correct.
In younger classes, it is telling of Bible stories, but in classes for teenagers, it can be walking through the Old Testaments in 100 days, for adult classes, there are lessons on Baptist belief, everything from baptism, Lord's Supper, Congregational decision making..... or lessons on 100 Truths (this is in Chinese), where students learn what the Bible teaches about faith, marriages...., some classes are going into expository studies of specific Books in the Bible. Sunday School teachers are not group discussion moderators, they are teachers, they need to be trained, there are textbooks for students and guidebooks for teachers. Usually lessons on theology or on Book of Revelation, will be conducted by the Rev. or the Pastors.
Sunday School is not babysitting session for small kids. It is not something we can replace with cell group or Bible Study groups. -
messages preached are interpretation and explanation of the Bible by the speakers. Some Churches have groups discussion to discuss how they can apply the sermons in their life. Sunday School is the ministry that teaches Christians what the Bible says, in its original words. The Bible is what Christians use in building the pillars, not the interpration from the speakers.Originally posted by Icemoon:If you ask me .. I say the message preached is the most important.
Whatever is preached usually set the guideline for what is taught in bible study classes. And it will set the direction for the church.
Like the chinese saying, the top pillar not straight the bottom pillar will be crooked. -
Actually some of them can be done equally well, if not better, with bible study groups.Originally posted by sgdiehard:Sunday School is not church kindergarten, it is church education ministry. In all Baptist Churches, Sunday School is held before or after worship service, all Christians, should attend Sunday School, it is said that "if you are not a teacher, then you must be a student".
In younger classes, it is telling of Bible stories, but in classes for teenagers, it can be walking through the Old Testaments in 100 days, for adult classes, there are lessons on Baptist belief, everything from baptism, Lord's Supper, Congregational decision making..... or lessons on 100 Truths (this is in Chinese), where students learn what the Bible teaches about faith, marriages...., some classes are going into expository studies of specific Books in the Bible. Sunday School teachers are not group discussion moderators, they are teachers, they need to be trained, there are textbooks for students and guidebooks for teachers. Usually lessons on theology or on Book of Revelation, will be conducted by the Rev. or the Pastors.
Sunday School is not babysitting session for small kids. It is not something we can replace with cell group or Bible Study groups.
My opinion is that since bible study group is like seminar class and sunday school is like lecture .. seminar class is always better than lecture. Sorry if this logic is a bit childish.
The label can be quite confusing. Some people call a sermon bible study session if it does not involve the sacrament and the content is about deeper biblical truth. -
I think the most important thing is the preparation. In Sunday School class, the teachers are doing the preparations, students do homework to help them remember what they learn. In group discussions, all members must prepare for the discussions to fruitful.Originally posted by Icemoon:Actually some of them can be done equally well, if not better, with bible study groups.
My opinion is that since bible study group is like seminar class and sunday school is like lecture .. seminar class is always better than lecture. Sorry if this logic is a bit childish.
The label can be quite confusing. Some people call a sermon bible study session if it does not involve the sacrament and the content is about deeper biblical truth.
The other thing is that in Sunday School class, the teachers are supposed to teach what the Bible actually says, giving the background, the context in which words were said, etc. whereas in group discussions, members exchange ideas on how they benefit from the teachings, how they can apply the lessons from the Bible in life, etc.. -
your explanation is confusing.Originally posted by sgdiehard:messages preached are interpretation and explanation of the Bible by the speakers. Some Churches have groups discussion to discuss how they can apply the sermons in their life. Sunday School is the ministry that teaches Christians what the Bible says, in its original words. The Bible is what Christians use in building the pillars, not the interpration from the speakers.
you seem to have a low view of the message preached on the pulpit. Are you saying the message preached does not teach what the bible says, in its original words? -
Actually in bible study groups .. the leader also teach. I guess it is how they want to organize it.Originally posted by sgdiehard:I think the most important thing is the preparation. In Sunday School class, the teachers are doing the preparations, students do homework to help them remember what they learn. In group discussions, all members must prepare for the discussions to fruitful.
The other thing is that in Sunday School class, the teachers are supposed to teach what the Bible actually says, giving the background, the context in which words were said, etc. whereas in group discussions, members exchange ideas on how they benefit from the teachings, how they can apply the lessons from the Bible in life, etc..
For higher level classes, like graduate level discussion groups in university, everyone just discuss. For lower levels, it is like attending a class. Informally we call them Sunday School (zhu3 ri4 xue2), but to make it more prestigious we call them bible study groups also. Traditionally Sunday School is for kids and teenagers. -
Interesting.Originally posted by sgdiehard:Sunday School is not church kindergarten, it is church education ministry. In all Baptist Churches, Sunday School is held before or after worship service, all Christians, should attend Sunday School, it is said that "if you are not a teacher, then you must be a student".
Sad to say, the only baptist church I attended was .. FCBC.
Wait .. issit baptist in the first place?
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How does the Baptist Church work?Originally posted by sgdiehard:Sunday School is not babysitting session for small kids. It is not something we can replace with cell group or Bible Study groups.
So the SS is compulsory. What about BS?
I believe there is only time to attend one every weekend. -
Speakers on the pulpit can teach directly from the Bible, in that case, they are functioning as Sunday School teachers. They can also digest some teachings from the Bible and share with the congregation on how these teachings could apply in today's context. We learn in both ways, there is no high or low view.Originally posted by Icemoon:your explanation is confusing.
you seem to have a low view of the message preached on the pulpit. Are you saying the message preached does not teach what the bible says, in its original words? -
In my opinion.
Too many terminology. Confusing. ...
Gam pei -
No more cheers liao?Originally posted by M©+square:In my opinion.
To many terminology. Confusing. ...
Gam pei
Next time use L'Chayim lah.
Yah .. too many terminology .. in fact some cell groups also conduct mini bible study during fellowship. How do we classify them? -
Baptist churches believe every believer is a priest, congregation has the highest authority in administration, Rev. and pastors have the highest authority in theology. Baptist churches are independent of each other, there is no central authority.Originally posted by Icemoon:How does the Baptist Church work?
So the SS is compulsory. What about BS?
I believe there is only time to attend one every weekend.
Many Baptist churches, especially those Chinese churches, follow the structures of baptist churches in HK, and the Southern Baptist Churches in america. There are generally 4 ministries in a Baptist Church, Worship, Education (Sunday Schoold, some include management of the church library), Fellowships, and Evangelism (mainly foreign mission). BS is normally part of the Fellowships activities which consist of junior fellowship, teenagers fellowships, youth groups, young adult ministry, adult ministry and Senior Adult ministry, in the past there were also Women Fellowship for women only. These groups or fellowships meet once a month or every fortnight as a big group, and the other week they meet in smaller groups, call it BS group or cell groups. Essentially, they meet as small groups to study, to share, to fellowship.....
Usually the youth groups would meet on Saturday afternoon, then follow by Choir practice for those involved, some groups meet on Sunday afternoon, that would keep them the whole Sunday in church. -
This I fully agree. Essentially if we look at the activities in all the churches, there is no big difference, just names.Originally posted by M©+square:In my opinion.
Too many terminology. Confusing. ...
Gam pei -
Need to get up early tomorrow. Good night.