You can be a "Born Christian" ?
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1 Corinthians 7:14 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.
(King James Version)
14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
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So children are classified as either unclean children or holy children........
Holy children because one parent is a believer.......
If the Children is considered Holy , then they are Saved.......then they are part of the Church.......they are Christians.......that's why some churches practise Infant Baptism for these Holy children.........
But of course the Children need to confirm that they believe in Jesus when they are matured, hence the need for the Confirmation rite.......
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So a person can be born as a Christian and as he grows up, decides to continue to follow Jesus.........he is no less a christian than someone who had had undergone a 'Conversion Experience' if his decision to follow Christ is from his heart.
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Does this view conflict with what you had been taught? ( What does your church teach about Holy Children, as in the Bible passage above?) -
Dr. Who
[I edited it. Cut out some unecessary words. sorry.]
If the Children is considered Holy , then they are Saved.......then they are part of the Church.......they are Christians.......that's why some churches practise Infant Baptism for these Holy children.........
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Both [Holy and sanctified] means to set apart in either OT or NT. It is a neutral word actually. Depending on its usage it could have shades of meaning.
Let me quote the verse:
1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is HAGIAZO- SANCTIFIED by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is HAGIAZO-SANCTIFIED by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are HAGIOS-holy.
HAGIAZO IS A VERB. HAGIOS IS AN ADJECTIVE.
A piece of ground could be made holy.
Ex 3:5 Then He said, "Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground
Is the Lord then saying here that the ground is saved [from sin]? Certainly not.
A day could be holy
Ex 16:23 Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD has said: 'Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.'"
was the Sabbath here saved [from sin]? Certainly not.
Garments could be made holy
Ex 28:2 "And you shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother, for glory and for beauty.
Were the garments here then saved [from sin]? Certainly not
Things could be holy
Ex 28:38 "So it shall be on Aaron's forehead, that Aaron may bear the iniquity of the holy things which the children of Israel hallow in all their holy gifts; and it shall always be on his forehead, that they may be accepted before the LORD.
Were the things here then saved [from sin]? Certainly not
The third person of the Blessed Trinity is called Holy.
Does that mean then the the Holy Spirit was saved [from sin]? Certainly not
You see the word "holy" could be used in a special sense as in being redeemed from sin or it could mean "to be separate from" without special reference to salvation from sin holiness.
Garments, things , a particular day could be separated unto God without being separated from sin. [These things have no sin in the first place. These things are amoral]
A particular person could be positioned in a special place of privilege that others may not be in. To be in contact with someone who can share the Word of God [the Gospel] to you is indeed a special place of privilege which others may not have the privilege of. If you are in a family of Christians, God has placed you my friend in a special privileged separated position that others may not be in.
Grab the oppurtunity!!! Trust in Christ that you may be separated from SIN ACTUALLY. FROM IT'S PENALTY. FROM IT'S POWER AND EVENTUALLY FROM ITS PRESENCE.
note: notice verse 14 an unbelieving spouse could be made HAGIAZO because of the influence of a believing spouse. But it does not mean that the husband or wife is saved. For Paul wrote in verse 16:
1Co 7:16 For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?
I thought they were made Hagiazo already in verse 14? Yes, the Hagiazo there does not mean being saved from sin. It means being placed in a special separated privilege or position. And that goes for the hagios children too.
The nation of Israel was called a HOLY NATION. BUT NOT ALL OF THEM WERE SAVED. Only those who trusted in the coming Messiah were saved and therefore made holy from sin.
[There are 4 aspects of Santification: 1) Pre-converstion sanctification 2) Positional sanctification 3) Progressive sanctification and 4) Perfected sanctification]. -
Many are borned to be of many different religions.
Not all will follow this religion throughout their whole life.
Being a "Born Christian" does not mean you are holy children of God's grace.
Holy Nation but not all are saved, sad but true indeed.
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i envy those kids born into a Christian family. Because mine is not. I am the only Christian in the family. They could have their mom and dads expound to them the Bible, teach them the great doctrines of the faith, have a godly fatherly and motherly christian counsel and etc.Originally posted by White_Wolf_Thunder:Many are borned to be of many different religions.
Not all will follow this religion throughout their whole life.
Being a "Born Christian" does not mean you are holy children of God's grace.
Holy Nation but not all are saved, sad but true indeed.
I pray that those kids born into a Christian family, I hope they will take advantage of their strategic position. -
Personally, I do not envy such children. Many of these are privilege kids but yet do not know how privilege they are. More importantly, the issue is really whether their Christian parents are able to mentor them in the way of the Lord. I have seen too many Christian brats in my church who has excellent parents who are good church leaders, yet they are not able to bring up their offspring to walk correctly in God's path.Originally posted by Ironside:i envy those kids born into a Christian family. Because mine is not. I am the only Christian in the family. They could have their mom and dads expound to them the Bible, teach them the great doctrines of the faith, have a godly fatherly and motherly christian counsel and etc.
I pray that those kids born into a Christian family, I hope they will take advantage of their strategic position. -
1 Timothy 3:2-5 (New International Version)
2 Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?)
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So from the above passage, church leaders must have children who are OK, not having moral problems...... Otherwise it is a sign that they are disqualified to be leaders......but many Churches and leaders ignore this sign.......carry on as if God's word can be explained away.......and livea lie to the church and to themselves......
Pray we ourselves will not be disqualified in God's eyes.......... -
i get what u mean CE. but at the other end of the spectrum, we have new converts who struggle to live as a Christian in a non-believing family. recently, a friend of mine (she's in her mid 20's) got slapped by her mum n banned from church. ouchOriginally posted by Chin Eng:Personally, I do not envy such children. Many of these are privilege kids but yet do not know how privilege they are. More importantly, the issue is really whether their Christian parents are able to mentor them in the way of the Lord. I have seen too many Christian brats in my church who has excellent parents who are good church leaders, yet they are not able to bring up their offspring to walk correctly in God's path. -
yes, that is true. so true.Originally posted by Chin Eng:Personally, I do not envy such children. Many of these are privilege kids but yet do not know how privilege they are. More importantly, the issue is really whether their Christian parents are able to mentor them in the way of the Lord. I have seen too many Christian brats in my church who has excellent parents who are good church leaders, yet they are not able to bring up their offspring to walk correctly in God's path.
I read a write up that says in effect:
The fourth commandment has been changed in our times. Where it should have been:
"children obey your parents in the Lord....that it maybe well with you."
Now it has been changed to:
"Parents obey your children in everything that it maybe well with you."
so sad. -
may i ask why you quit being a sunday school teacher?Originally posted by Chin Eng:Personally, I do not envy such children. Many of these are privilege kids but yet do not know how privilege they are. More importantly, the issue is really whether their Christian parents are able to mentor them in the way of the Lord. I have seen too many Christian brats in my church who has excellent parents who are good church leaders, yet they are not able to bring up their offspring to walk correctly in God's path. -
I was a Sunday School teacher for about 6 years, 3 of which I double as a Sunday School superintendent.Originally posted by davidche:may i ask why you quit being a sunday school teacher?
I taught because I enjoyed teaching and I really enjoy children (believe it or not).
I because the suprerintendent because my church (like many churches) are full of politics and are divided by different factions. You know by now that I am not mister nice guy. I had a role to play then and that was to ensure that Sunday school survived when challenged by an intiative attempting to kill it. I almost have to build the SS from scratch because for a period of 2 to 3 years before I taught, SS virtually disappeared. After I took on the role, I had to ensure that I have enough publicity to ensure that the various congregation recognise SS as a viable ministry and that it is growing. Only then I can attract good teachers. Only when I have teachers then will I have classes to run. When I left that role, I had about 60 to 70 students and 15 teachers.
I left because it was time to go. I finished the job that had to be done - that is to build the SS.
Once I left, I made sure that I would not interfere with the current leadership. I have no role in SS as of Jan 2006. I will not participate in an SS activity unless the new superintended explicitly invite me (even though some of my students have asked when I will come back to teach)
Recently I have been invited to sit in the Christian Education committee in a non-teaching capacity. -
Where I am coming from is: folks in the non-Christian actually cherish their salvation more. Unless the Christian parent takes pain in nurturing that Christian child, the fact it is a "Christian" home matters very little.Originally posted by ben1xy:i get what u mean CE. but at the other end of the spectrum, we have new converts who struggle to live as a Christian in a non-believing family. recently, a friend of mine (she's in her mid 20's) got slapped by her mum n banned from church. ouch -
I believe there is no way to kill Sunday School other than an aging congregation (how to say ren kou lao hua?)
If they kill it .. can they afford to have children running around during the service?
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yup. definitely. Esp, cradle catholics like myself, i went through a long "mundane" period when i was a teenOriginally posted by Chin Eng:Where I am coming from is: folks in the non-Christian actually cherish their salvation more. Unless the Christian parent takes pain in nurturing that Christian child, the fact it is a "Christian" home matters very little. -
aging populationOriginally posted by Icemoon:I believe there is no way to kill Sunday School other than an aging congregation (how to say ren kou lao hua?)
If they kill it .. can they afford to have children running around during the service? -
youre good.Originally posted by Chin Eng:I was a Sunday School teacher for about 6 years, 3 of which I double as a Sunday School superintendent.
I taught because I enjoyed teaching and I really enjoy children (believe it or not).
I because the suprerintendent because my church (like many churches) are full of politics and are divided by different factions. You know by now that I am not mister nice guy. I had a role to play then and that was to ensure that Sunday school survived when challenged by an intiative attempting to kill it. I almost have to build the SS from scratch because for a period of 2 to 3 years before I taught, SS virtually disappeared. After I took on the role, I had to ensure that I have enough publicity to ensure that the various congregation recognise SS as a viable ministry and that it is growing. Only then I can attract good teachers. Only when I have teachers then will I have classes to run. When I left that role, I had about 60 to 70 students and 15 teachers.
I left because it was time to go. I finished the job that had to be done - that is to build the SS.
Once I left, I made sure that I would not interfere with the current leadership. I have no role in SS as of Jan 2006. I will not participate in an SS activity unless the new superintended explicitly invite me (even though some of my students have asked when I will come back to teach)
Recently I have been invited to sit in the Christian Education committee in a non-teaching capacity. -
There are ways:Originally posted by Icemoon:I believe there is no way to kill Sunday School other than an aging congregation (how to say ren kou lao hua?)
If they kill it .. can they afford to have children running around during the service?
1. Worship congregation executive committee decides to embark on a children's church concept.
2. SS, which normally operates during worship time, is seen to be a threat to the new concept.
3. Kills SS with preference shown to having the kids sit through the entire service, in a special alloted area of the sanctuary where the sermon is given the kiddie's treatment using OHP.
If it is not for the concern that some parents (me included) who sees this concept as being really idiotic, SS would have died totally.
Some of us still believe that there is a missing generation of about 4 yrs of children who did not go through the SS school route.
.... but I think this is OOT already. Maybe someone can start a thread about Problems in Church Ministry..... any takers???? -
This is so sad but so true. A teenage in my church actually told his father, a faithful leader in the church, "being born in a Christian family gives me no choice for the religion and livestyle that I want." The parents were good parents but what went wrong??Originally posted by Chin Eng:Personally, I do not envy such children. Many of these are privilege kids but yet do not know how privilege they are. More importantly, the issue is really whether their Christian parents are able to mentor them in the way of the Lord. I have seen too many Christian brats in my church who has excellent parents who are good church leaders, yet they are not able to bring up their offspring to walk correctly in God's path. -
I am not sure if aging congregation would kill SS, but killing SS would kill the church.Originally posted by Icemoon:I believe there is no way to kill Sunday School other than an aging congregation (how to say ren kou lao hua?)
If they kill it .. can they afford to have children running around during the service? 
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I know of a case of a pastor who closed down sunday school, Boys Brigade, youth felowship so that he could have centralised control...........shortly after, he was allegedly caught for stealing from church funds....and was told to resign........
a wolf was exposed.......imagine if he was allowed to carry on.......this happened many years ago.......that's why there should be checks and balances in the church.......pastors who are a law unto themselves are dangerous...... -
why do you say that?Originally posted by sgdiehard:I am not sure if aging congregation would kill SS, but killing SS would kill the church. -
Did the parents tell him "go and lead the religion and livestyle you desire .. you will forever be our prodigal son"?Originally posted by sgdiehard:This is so sad but so true. A teenage in my church actually told his father, a faithful leader in the church, "being born in a Christian family gives me no choice for the religion and livestyle that I want." The parents were good parents but what went wrong?? -
To me the church is not just a worship hall for worship, or just a gospel center for evangelism, nor is it a Christian community center for Christians to socialize (fellowship), it is a place where Christianity, our faith, our belief, our doctrine, or simply, the Truth, is being taught. Sunday School is the key ministry in this area. The day the church stops teaching, the day when church stops functioning as a church is near.Originally posted by Icemoon:why do you say that?
Personally, I do not think Bible Study groups, cell groups can replace Sunday School. -
I am glad to be born in a freethinking family.
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But Sunday School is like a church kindergarten operating on Sunday right?Originally posted by sgdiehard:To me the church is not just a worship hall for worship, or just a gospel center for evangelism, nor is it a Christian community center for Christians to socialize (fellowship), it is a place where Christianity, our faith, our belief, our doctrine, or simply, the Truth, is being taught. Sunday School is the key ministry in this area. The day the church stops teaching, the day when church stops functioning as a church is near.
Personally, I do not think Bible Study groups, cell groups can replace Sunday School.
Furthermore the things taught won't be too deep and they are sometimes not theologically correct. -
Originally posted by Icemoon:But Sunday School is like a church kindergarten operating on Sunday right?
Furthermore the things taught won't be too deep and they are sometimes not theologically correct.