Were all christians once catholic?
-
wah .. you got read early christian writings one?!
Ok .. discuss with you next time .. books like shepherd of hermas, 1, 2 Clement etc.
-
how could Pope Nicholas make such an unsightly mistake?
just because Sola Scriptura wasn't applicable during the apostolic age mean it is not applicable for all ages.
-
Wow. The Protestant feel that what the Apostles did are no longer relevant. I suppose it doesnt matter that no Christian used sola scriptura till 1500s.
Why dont u reject the other Apostolic teachings then?
But when, the heretics are Scriptures, as if they were wrong, and unauthoritative, and were variable, and the truth could not be extracted from them by those who were ignorant of Tradition...And when we challenge them in turn what that tradition, which is from the Apostles, which is guarded by the succession of elders in the churches, they oppose themselves to Tradition, saying that they are wiser, not only than those elders, but even than the Apostles. The Tradition of the Apostles, manifested 'on the contrary' in the whole world, is open in every Church to all who see the truth...And, since it is a long matter in a work like this to enumerate these successions, we will confute them by pointing to the Tradition of that greatest and most ancient and universally known Church, founded and constituted at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul, a tradition which she has had and a faith which she proclaims to all men from those Apostles.' Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3,1-3 (inter A.D. 180/199).
St Irenaus describe ur belief well...that u are wiser than the Apostles. -
That idiot .. care to tell the audience why there are 4 and only 4 gospels?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:St Irenaus describe ur belief well...that u are wiser than the Apostles.
-
If im not mistaken, he selected the 4 Gospel to counter a rival NT canon from the Roman Businessman Marcon and the Gnostics as well. U call him an idiot....protestants have no respect for those who labour so hard that u and i can go to Church in relative peace.Originally posted by Icemoon:That idiot .. care to tell the audience why there are 4 and only 4 gospels? -
WOOT!Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:If im not mistaken, he selected the 4 Gospel to counter a rival NT canon from the Roman Businessman Marcon and the Gnostics as well. U call him an idiot....protestants have no respect for those who labour so hard that u and i can go to Church in relative peace.
laoda .. pls reveal the REAL REASON as confessed by the man himself.
PS: I think you never read his work before, 'cos such a simple thing also dunno. -
Marcion is a nice guy. He even contributed money to the church in Rome ok ..Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:If im not mistaken, he selected the 4 Gospel to counter a rival NT canon from the Roman Businessman Marcon and the Gnostics as well. -
Just to inject another prespective, many early Christians who rejected The Nicene Creed of the 4th century AD that was imposed by the Pagan Roman Emperor Constantine, had converted to Islam when Islam appeared in the 7th century. This included the majority of Christian Arabs, North Africans and Mediterranean peoples. Spain and Turkey became Islamic countries during Muslim rule from the 8th century AD under the Ummayyad Empire and unlike what is often asserted (without academic qualification) by orientalists and modern christian commentators, Islamic conversion happened slowly over a period of about 200 years and muslims-christians coexisted for over 400 years. In fact, it was by intermarriages between the Arab Umayyad elite and the native Seljuk Turks that the Umayyad empire slowly gave way to the Ottoman empire, showing how open Muslim society was at that time to peoples of other races and cultures.
Spain is no longer muslim of course due to the genocide perpetrated by the Crusaders when Spain fell in the 15th Century.
The current trend towards viewing Islam with hostility is due to the nature of the Zionist ideology that has taken over the American establishment (neocon faction) and the subservience of most national press towards American political pressure. The Zionists of course view Islam as an enemy due to the ongoing conflict in Palestine where Islam is seen as an ideological bulwark against the Apartheid policies of the Western backed Zionist state.
For more info:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/actionnetwork/A10472988
http://wais.stanford.edu/Spain/spain_muslimspain21803.html -
Hiaz....protestnat dont know history ar?Originally posted by Icemoon:Marcion is a nice guy. He even contributed money to the church in Rome ok ..
Wikipedia:
Irenaeus was the first Christian writer to list all four of the now canonical Gospels as divinely-inspired, possibly in reaction to Marcion's edited version of the Gospel of Luke, which he (Marcion) asserted was the one and only true gospel.
Marcion of Sinope (ca. 110-160), was a major 2nd century Early Christian theologian, founder of what would later be called Marcionism, and one of the first to be strongly denounced by other Christians (who would later be called Catholic as opposed to Marcionite) as heretical. He created a strong ecclesiastical organization, parallel to that of the Church of Rome, with himself as Bishop. The Catholic Encyclopedia says of the Marcionites "they were perhaps the most dangerous foe Christianity has ever known."
According to the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica article on Marcion: "It was no mere school for the learned, disclosed no mysteries for the privileged, but sought to lay the foundation of the Christian community on the pure gospel, the authentic institutes of Christ. The pure gospel, however, Marcion found to be everywhere more or less corrupted and mutilated in the Christian circles of his time. His undertaking thus resolved itself into a reformation of Christendom. This reformation was to deliver Christendom from false Jewish doctrines by restoring the Pauline conception of the gospel, —Paul being, according to Marcion, the only apostle who had rightly understood the new message of salvation as delivered by Christ. In Marcion's own view, therefore, the founding of his church—to which he was first driven by opposition—amounts to a reformation of Christendom through a return to the gospel of Christ and to Paul; nothing was to be accepted beyond that. This of itself shows that it is a mistake to reckon Marcion among the Gnostics. A dualist he certainly was, but he was not a Gnostic."
What made Marcion distinct from the many who sought to recover the authentic Jesus, was that he believed that while the universe was created by Yahweh, the God behind Jesus and his teachings is not the same as the universal creator. This position has led many in orthodox branches to label his teachings Gnostic, as they make use of the concept of the Demiurge and a Docetic Christ.
Maybe a saint to ur eyes...but not mine haha -
I am not protestant but I know history better than the average Protestant you find in the foum or on the street.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Hiaz....protestnat dont know history ar?
He is a saint 'cos he has contributed money to the church in Rome. Why didn't you try to dispute this?
The reason why there are 4 gospels and only 4 is not because of Marcion. It is because of your hero Irenaues' lame thinking.
Maybe laoda can enlighten you. -
Ai yah...u noe also laOriginally posted by Icemoon:I am not protestant but I know history better than the average Protestant you find in the foum or on the street.
He is a saint 'cos he has contributed money to the church in Rome. Why didn't you try to dispute this?
The reason why there are 4 gospels and only 4 is not because of Marcion. It is because of your hero Irenaues' lame thinking.
Maybe laoda can enlighten you.
Becoz earth got 4 corners, so gospels also must be 4. -
The Nicene Creed of course is the foundation for the current doctrine of a Trinitarian Godhead. Muslims also reject the Nicene Creed because Muslims believe in a Transcendent God beyond Matter and they believe that Jesus Christ, while special on account of his miraculous virgin birth (which it seems is not so rare after all), was nevertheless only a human apostle of God, similar to all other prophets before and after him.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16298548/
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=a3146ea8-5c72-4be2-b9ce-f688c0cf6b49&k=37391 -
We know but this Pope like don't know.Originally posted by laoda99:Ai yah...u noe also la
Becoz earth got 4 corners, so gospels also must be 4. -
ok ok....Originally posted by frakfrakfrak:The Nicene Creed of course is the foundation for the current doctrine of a Trinitarian Godhead. Muslims also reject the Nicene Creed because Muslims believe in a Transcendent God beyond Matter and they believe that Jesus Christ, while special on account of his miraculous virgin birth (which it seems is not so rare after all), was nevertheless only a human apostle of God, similar to all other prophets before and after him.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16298548/
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=a3146ea8-5c72-4be2-b9ce-f688c0cf6b49&k=37391
You are like very OT leh -
I know that and the REASON why he even bothered to come up with 4 gospel is because of Marcion heresy and he is not a Saint...he is a heretic.Originally posted by Icemoon:We know but this Pope like don't know.
Marcion never donated to the Catholic Church after his apostacy.....he was a heretic.
Irenaues selected the 4 INSPIRED gospels not mainly because there is 4 corners in the Earth. He chose the 4 inspired ones. Naturally, the Bible was canonised and decreed inerrant in the Council of Hippo in 390plus AD.
Fathers:
"For the blessed apostle Paul himself, following the rule of his predecessor John, writes only by name to seven Churches in the following order--to the Corinthians afirst...there is a second to the Corinthians and to the Thessalonians, yet one Church is recognized as being spread over the entire world...Howbeit to Philemon one, to Titus one, and to Timothy two were put in writing...to be in honour however with the Catholic Church for the ordering of ecclesiastical discipline...one to the Laodicenes, another to the Alexandrians, both forged in Paul's name to suit the heresy of Marcion, and several others, which cannot be received into the Catholic Church; for it is not fitting that gall be mixed with honey. The Epistle of Jude no doubt, and the couple bearing the name of John, are accepted by the Catholic Church...But of Arsinous, called also Valentinus, or of Militiades we receive nothing at all." The fragment of Muratori (A.D. 177).
"The same authority of the apostolic churches will afford evidence to the other Gospels also, which we possess equally through their means, and according to their usage--I mean the Gospels of John and Matthew--whilst that which Mark published may be affirmed to be Peter's whose interpreter Mark was. For even Luke's form of the Gospel men usually ascribe to Paul." Tertullian, Against Marcion, 4:5 (A.D. 212).
"In his [Origen] first book on Matthew's Gospel, maintaining the Canon of the Church, he testifies that he knows only four Gospels, writing as follows: Among the four Gospels, which are the only indisputable ones in the Church of God under heaven, I have learned by tradition that the first was written by Matthew, who was once a publican, but afterwards an apostle of Jesus Christ, and it was prepared for the converts from Judaism, and published in the Hebrew language. The second is by Mark, who composed it according to the instructions of Peter, who in his Catholic epistle acknowledges him as a son, saying, 'The church that is at Babylon elected together with you, saluteth you, and so doth Marcus, my son.' And the third by Luke, the Gospel commended by Paul, and composed for Gentile converts. Last of all that by John." Origen, Commentary on Matthew, fragment in Eusebius Church History, 6:25,3 (A.D. 244). -
No need to hide historical truth bah? Why don't you quote from the man himself? Go on. Or you want us to do it for you?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:I know that and the REASON why he even bothered to come up with 4 gospel is because of Marcion heresy and he is not a Saint...he is a heretic.
Marcion never donated to the Catholic Church after his apostacy.....he was a heretic.
Irenaues selected the 4 INSPIRED gospels not mainly because there is 4 corners in the Earth. He chose the 4 inspired ones. Naturally, the Bible was canonised and decreed inerrant in the Council of Hippo in 390plus AD.
Irenaues did write very clearly why he chosen 4 gospels and only 4.
So you mean Marcion donated to the church before his apostacy?
wait .. I see you quote from the Muratori fragment. I think it is a bit controversial, so be careful. -
OT a bit .. I still want to know what do Catholics think of Origen.
-
If im not mistaken he was excommuncaited fer his doctrine on souls....Originally posted by Icemoon:OT a bit .. I still want to know what do Catholics think of Origen. -
Origen was the most influential theologian in the early church before Augustine came along.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:If im not mistaken he was excommuncaited fer his doctrine on souls....
Even a church father can get excommunicated. that is why I say not everything written by them can be believed. -
1) Yes he chose 4 because of the 4 corners of the world and bECAUSE its inspired. To deny it, is denying the validity of the Bible itself. But Why did he undertake this task, it was because of the rival Marcion NT gospels canon.Originally posted by Icemoon:No need to hide historical truth bah? Why don't you quote from the man himself? Go on. Or you want us to do it for you?
Irenaues did write very clearly why he chosen 4 gospels and only 4.
So you mean Marcion donated to the church before his apostacy?
wait .. I see you quote from the Muratori fragment. I think it is a bit controversial, so be careful.
2) I doubt he did, if im not mistaken he was most probably a bishop in the Catholic Church at first. -
not asking why he bothered coming up with any gospel, but why 4 and only 4?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:I know that and the REASON why he even bothered to come up with 4 gospel is because of Marcion heresy and he is not a Saint...he is a heretic.
look at the gospel of mark .. contains almost no extra information from the other three. choose for what?
furthermore scholars also find very little ancient manuscripts of Mark, suggesting that Mark wasn't widely read in the early church. -
Well, then quote from those who aint excommunciated LOL.Originally posted by Icemoon:Origen was the most influential theologian in the early church before Augustine came along.
Even a church father can get excommunicated. that is why I say not everything written by them can be believed.
1) We quote from them to show what the early christians thought and thier doctrines. Naturally, after reading many esepcially Augustine of Hippo (im a bored 17yr old who loves debating wif protestants.. .)I came to the conclusion that the early Church is the Catholic Church todae.
2) Church Fathers are not infallible. If i want infallible decrees, i can quote Council Documents or from Popes. -
1. Lame .. don't you think so? 4 because of the 4 corners - this is the main reason. If he wasn't so superstitious he could have chosen only 3 because Mark like quite fei4 one. furthermore who is he to think these are inspired and other well-intended gospels are not?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:1) Yes he chose 4 because of the 4 corners of the world and bECAUSE its inspired. To deny it, is denying the validity of the Bible itself. But Why did he undertake this task, it was because of the rival Marcion NT gospels canon.
2) I doubt he did, if im not mistaken he was most probably a bishop in the Catholic Church at first.
2. clarify a bit - you mean he donated to the church in rome before his apostasy then after that never donate liao? -
Are u Christian?Originally posted by Icemoon:not asking why he bothered coming up with any gospel, but why 4 and only 4?
look at the gospel of mark .. contains almost no extra information from the other three. choose for what?
furthermore scholars also find very little ancient manuscripts of Mark, suggesting that Mark wasn't widely read in the early church.
He chose the 4 INSPIRED gospel. The ones written by people under inspiration form the Holy Spirit. The book of Revelations want widely accepted either till the bible canon was declared in 390AD in the Council of Hippo. -
2) I have no idea on that point. But why would he donate to his arch-enemy. Would we accept the donations of a heretic?Originally posted by Icemoon:1. Lame .. don't you think so? 4 because of the 4 corners - this is the main reason. If he wasn't so superstitious he couldn't have chosen only 3. furthermore who is he to think these are inspired and other well-intended gospels are not?
2. clarify a bit - you mean he donated to the church in rome before his apostasy then after that never donate liao?