Opinions of atheism
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I agree with you on this, professed religion is not a good guage to measure a person's conduct, what really boils down is what the person really believed and practiced.Originally posted by kaister:As you can see, tons of explanations and I can still go on. The main point illustrated by these figures, is that religion is not correlated to conduct/ lawful behaviour.
sidetrack; a normal person don't just go around thinking about killing or robbing or raping someone (if you know someone like this, pls do him a favor, send him to the mental hospital, he needs treatment). -
in any nation that practises freedom of religion and democracy; labelling of that nation as being Buddhist, Christian, etc (unless there is an overwhelming majority) would equivocally result in certain marginalization in a society and political correctness. I reckon the idea of certain nationas being called buddhist or christian will get phased out sooner or later. except vatican city or Muslim countries.Originally posted by stupidissmart:How do u define a christian/catholic nation then
In tat case, it seems no country can be labeled as christian or catholic nation. Do buddhist deny thailand as buddhist nation because there r many transevites in thailand.... -
in any nation that practises freedom of religion and democracy; labelling of that nation as being Buddhist, Christian, etc (unless there is an overwhelming majority) would equivocally result in certain marginalization in a society and political correctness. I reckon the idea of certain nationas being called buddhist or christian will get phased out sooner or later. except vatican city or Muslim countries.
Although I will like to agree with u, I don't think u r really qualified to claim tis. Currently, phillipines is still catholic, US is still christian and thailand is still buddhist. And their population studies really reflects that most of the people r really of such religion -
I agree with u on the Phillipines bit and Thailand part. The U.S, i'm not really sure. I would however hope that u can proposit what do u deem to be a Chrstian or Buddhist state? A state where there is an overwhelming majority of 1 religion? or a state that outrightly describes itself as Christian or Buddhist nation. I find it deterministic for us to establish our parameters before taking this issue further because this article is something i find interesting.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Although I will like to agree with u, I don't think u r really qualified to claim tis. Currently, phillipines is still catholic, US is still christian and thailand is still buddhist. And their population studies really reflects that most of the people r really of such religion -
As much as what some political leaders are declaring, probably hoping to garner some support from certain prominent sectors of the populace, there is really no such thing as a christian or catholic nation. Some leaders of such countries declare themselves fervent followers of these faiths, other leaders are downright immoral.Originally posted by stupidissmart:How do u define a christian/catholic nation then In tat case, it seems no country can be labeled as christian or catholic nation. Do buddhist deny thailand as buddhist nation because there r many transevites in thailand....
I'd not comment on whether Thailand can call themselves a buddhist nation because of the transvestites in the country. You know, I don't really like to comment on philosophy outside my own. -
Who declares the US as a Christian country? This country has banned "God" and prayers in most schools.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Although I will like to agree with u, I don't think u r really qualified to claim tis. Currently, phillipines is still catholic, US is still christian and thailand is still buddhist. And their population studies really reflects that most of the people r really of such religionhttp://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=Topic&TopicID=10 has this report:
If you live in a household of 10 members and about 6 of them are Christians, would you say that this household is a Christian household?
You have opened the research archive about Church attendance. The statistics and analysis in this archive come from national surveys conducted by Barna Research.
How Many
47% of American adults attend church in a typical weekend, not including a special event such as a wedding or a funeral. (2005)
Percentage of adults nationwide who have attended a church service in the past seven days not including a special event such as a wedding or a funeral. 2004-43% 2002-43% 2001-42% 2000-40% 1997-43% 1996-37% 1992-47% 1991-49%
62% of Republicans attended church in a typical weekend compared to 47% of Democrats. (2006)
44% of men nationwide compared with 50% of women have attended a church service, not including a special event such as a wedding or a funeral, in the past seven days. (2006)
Married people are more likely than singles to attend church in a typical weekend: 52% versus 38% respectively. (2006)
Blacks (52%) are the ethnic group most likely to have attended a religious service in the past week, followed by whites (49%), Hispanics (41%), and Asians (29%). (2006)
Catholics and Protestants had virtually the same likelihood of attending church in 2006. Catholics: 2006 55% 2004 51% 2002 46% 2000 49% Protestants: 2006 58% 2004 52% 2002 53% 2000 47%
Mosaics are least likely to attend church in a typical weekend (33%) versus Baby Busters (43%), Baby Boomers (49%), and Elders (54%). (2006)
Attendance levels are still higher in the “Bible belt” areas – the South and Midwest – than in the Northeast and West. 54% of those in the Midwest and 51% of those in the South and attend church in a typical week, compared to 41% of those in the Northeast and 39% of those in the West. (2006) -
The phillippines then ? I think it is pretty sure to say it is a catholic nation. Earlier u state tat phillippines cannot be considered as a catholic nation because u get to know some playboy there. Is that a fair statement to make ?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/country_profiles/1262783.stm
The church's influence is strong in Asia's largest Catholic nation
http://www.zenit.org/testimonials/index.php?language=english&country=71&sC=Philippines
I mentioned to her that as we are the only Catholic nation in Asia, it was important that we make a clear stand for the dignity of Life and the protection of the unborn who are unable to protect themselves.
http://sify.com/news/international/fullstory.php?id=13721986
The Philippines, Asia's largest Roman Catholic nation, hailed on Wednesday the election of Pope Benedict XVI, with President Gloria Arroyo calling his apppointment a "continuing beacon" for the faithful.If you live in a household of 10 members and about 6 of them are Christians, would you say that this household is a Christian household?
Tat is a very interesting question. Most of the people r christian. I don't know why it is not a christian household. U r not satisfied with "most", r u only satisfy only with "all" ? Furthermore in america, u can really see signs of christianity on it. In the money, it write "In god we trust" There r many people and politicians in america who wanna label the country as a christian country as well. -
Originally posted by Chin Eng:I am using Singapore only because I cannot think of another country
Each country has it's own characteristics and using inmates' purported belief to gauge the effectiveness of that belief is not too accurate.
All I am saying is such US statistics are extremely bias and sometimes it is wrongly used to "prove" a certain point. While some leaders in the US government may claim that they are a Christian nation, the reality is, it is NOT.
Many Americans may claim to go to church, but how many of these are really practicing Christian? In some ways, it is no different from, say, the Philippines, which claim to be a Catholic country. Virtually every Filipino businessman I come across is a womaniser (this is from personal knowledge).
Chin Eng, your views are valid but I'm afraid I'm with stupidissmart on this one.Originally posted by stupidissmart:How do u define a christian/catholic nation then In tat case, it seems no country can be labeled as christian or catholic nation. Do buddhist deny thailand as buddhist nation because there r many transevites in thailand....
US is a big nation. Undeniably it is a christian country due to the very fact that christians comprise the majority and even their dollar bills propagates christian beliefs - Eg "In God we trust". If that does not count as a christian country, I don't know what is a christian country then.
Furthermore, if we don't take a person's purported belief to guage, what do we use then? Do we judge for that person what religion he/she should belong in? This way of data collection may not be the most effective way as we've seen in cultural catholism but it's still the most reliable way of telling a person's religion. In fact, I think this is the only way to tell a person's religion and belief.
Have you studied statistics before? If numbers are big enough, even a small proportion can be still quite significant in terms of absolute value. A great proportion of American people still go to churches. Not every Filipino male is a womaniser. That's why we use statistics and numbers to back up our claims. There're always black sheeps in any religion or belief, so be glad that behaviours of some are not representative of the group. But neither can one denies such behaviour and rejects them from their religion just because they're "not behaving like a true christians".
Edit: replaced even with enough. -
No matter how u say it, america cannot say tat it is not "christian". There have been many occasions, even in modern history, when it really acts as a christian state. Among its people there r many who contend tat america is a christian nation and others who claim it is not. Even among the politician, we can see the same debate over and oevr again
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/FK30Aa04.html
Public opinion-wise, america is consider by many as "chritian nation"
After George W Bush's re-election, few people doubt that the United States is a Christian nation.
http://christianparty.net/christianation.htm
even christian website state so
1983 - Oct. 4, 1982, Joint Resolution of Congress: "Whereas the Bible, the Word of God, has made a unique contribution in shaping the United States as a distinctive and blessed nation of people. Whereas Biblical teachings inspired concepts of civil government that are contained in our Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of The United States ... Whereas that renewing our knowledge of, and faith in God through Holy Scriptures can strengthen us as a nation and a people. Now therefore be it resolved ... that the President is authorized and requested to designate 1983 as a national "Year of the Bible" in recognition of both the formative influence the Bible has been for our nation, and our national need to study and apply the teachings of the Holy Scriptures." February 3, 1983 - President Ronald Reagan issued the above requested proclamation. President George Bush declared 1990 to be the international year of Bible reading
http://www.harpers.org/ExcerptTheChristianParadox.html
bottomline is:
When we say we are a Christian nation—and, overwhelmingly, we do—it means something.
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/07/12/gops_christian_nation/
This time it's the Republican Party of Texas, President Bush's home state, which has approved a plank in its platform affirming that "the United States of America is a Christian nation."
http://www.grace24u.org/cnation.html
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here." -- Patrick Henry
http://www.afn.org/~govern/Christian_Nation.html
Recently, many authors have debated whether or not the United States of America was founded as a Christian nation. I wish to provide a few historical quotes from our Founding Era that lend credence to the supposition that we indeed were founded as a Christian nation.
Granted, God is not mentioned in the Constitution, but He is mentioned in every major document leading up to the final wording of the Constitution. For example, Connecticut is still known as the "Constitution State" because its colonial constitution was used as a model for the United States Constitution. Its first words were: "For as much as it has pleased the almighty God by the wise disposition of His Divine ProvidenceÂ…"
Most of the fifty-five Founding Fathers who worked on the Constitution were members of orthodox Christian churches and many were even evangelical Christians. The first official act in the First Continental Congress was to open in Christian prayer, which ended in these words: "...the merits of Jesus Christ, Thy Son, our Savior. Amen". Sounds Christian to me. -
hi kaister....
My point is, paraphasing ben... who defines what religion a country is?
If you refer to my link in my previous post, that website has got a very good ear to the ground on what religious state US is currently in. It might be true in the past where the pilgrims journeyed across the oceans to the new world and bringing with it their faith in God. However, is this true now?
Sure the US currency has "In God We Trust", it also have the Freemason's all seeing eye and the unfinished pyramid, decidedly pagan symbols - not very Christian is it? plus the ban on prayers and the mention of God in schools?
At the end of the day, we can all go point fingers at the US for because someone declared that it as a Christian nation and that it's prison is full of folks who called themselves Christian, then I really have nothing to say.
As I have said in another forum, let's have some balance here... -
Many Americans may claim to go to church, but how many of these are really practicing Christian? In some ways, it is no different from, say, the Philippines, which claim to be a Catholic country. Virtually every Filipino businessman I come across is a womaniser (this is from personal knowledge).
At the end of the day, we can all go point fingers at the US for because someone declared that it as a Christian nation and that it's prison is full of folks who called themselves Christian, then I really have nothing to say.
The point of contend is really u claiming tat phillippines is not consider a catholic country simply because u view there r many "womanisers there from your personal knowledge". U also bash the faith of other people claiming they r not christian even though they say they r and they went to church. Your original point of not stereotyping and generalise has been blatantly abuse by yourself by generalising american who go to church, not to be true christian or generalising phillipine people not to be catholic because they r womaniser. R u not guilty of practising the same charge u set ? -
Hey Kaister. That is what I and probably Chin Eng are trying to establish. What defines a Christian state? if .. from the above reply, u deem a Christian state to be characterized by a larger population of Christians, then i will have no arguement there.Originally posted by kaister:Have you studied statistics before? If numbers are big enough, even a small proportion can be still quite significant in terms of absolute value. A great proportion of American people still go to churches. Not every Filipino male is a womaniser. That's why we use statistics and numbers to back up our claims. There're always black sheeps in any religion or belief, so be glad that behaviours of some are not representative of the group. But neither can one denies such behaviour and rejects them from their religion just because they're "not behaving like a true christians".
Edit: replaced even with enough.
As a caveat, before we proceed. If prayers and the spreading of the Gospel is prevented, do such states still qualify to be categorized as Christian states? If u say yes, i would like to hear u expound on that.
i however, truely agree with your final 2 statements -
All extracts from the links given by SIS.
[quote]Originally posted by stupidissmart:
[b]http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/FK30Aa04.html
- Within the European frame of reference, there is no such thing as American Christendom - no centuries-old schools of theology, no tithes, no livings, no Church taxes, no establishment - there is only Christianity, which revives itself with terrible force in unknowing re-enactment of the past. It does not resemble what Europeans refer to by the word "religion". American Christianity is much closer to what the German pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer, writing in 1944 from his cell in Adolf Hitler's prison, called "religionless Christianity". Soren Kierkegaard, I think, would have been pleased.
http://christianparty.net/christianation.htm- can't access this one - sorry, banned by company....
http://www.harpers.org/ExcerptTheChristianParadox.html
- And therein is the paradox. America is simultaneously the most professedly Christian of the developed nations and the least Christian in its behavior. That paradox—more important, perhaps, than the much touted ability of French women to stay thin on a diet of chocolate and cheese—illuminates the hollow at the core of our boastful, careening culture.
- Only 40 percent of Americans can name more than four of the Ten Commandments, and a scant half can cite any of the four authors of the Gospels. Twelve percent believe Joan of Arc was Noah's wife. This failure to recall the specifics of our Christian heritage may be further evidence of our nation's educational decline, but it probably doesn't matter all that much in spiritual or political terms. Here is a statistic that does matter: Three quarters of Americans believe the Bible teaches that “God helps those who help themselves.” That is, three out of four Americans believe that this uber-American idea, a notion at the core of our current individualist politics and culture, which was in fact uttered by Ben Franklin, actually appears in Holy Scripture. The thing is, not only is Franklin's wisdom not biblical; it's counter-biblical. Few ideas could be further from the gospel message, with its radical summons to love of neighbor. On this essential matter, most Americans—most American Christians—are simply wrong, as if 75 percent of American scientists believed that Newton proved gravity causes apples to fly up.
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/07/12/gops_christian_nation/
- Numerically, the United States is a predominantly Christian nation. That's a factual statement -- just like the statement that historically, Christianity has been a major force in our public life. But to call the United States a "Christian nation" is an assertion of ideology, not fact -- particularly coming from the same corner as efforts to legislate religious beliefs about homosexuality or abortion.
http://www.grace24u.org/cnation.html This one self declare lah....
http://www.afn.org/~govern/Christian_Nation.html This one talks about the history of the founding fathers.... I have no doubt that in the past, at the times of the pilgrims, they brought along the Gospel and these folks are probably very good Christians.
So is America christian? Depends on who you are asking and what objective the person who reply has.....
Personal opinion? I don't believe that the US of A is Christian and unless a government is overwhelmingly and relentless driving the country towards being totally religious, there is no way any country can be defined as religious. -
To SIS:
i would sincerely like to hear your definition of a Christian State. Additionally, let's say u deem Phillipines to be a Catholic nation, is that a good or bad thing? or by your appriasal, a Christian state is a bad thing as it infringes on the basic tenets of religious freedom? -
Some additional points to add. In reiteration of what CE mentioned, lobbying on certain religions coulld serve as a political strategy to win votes. We cannot discount such a view. What i can't seem to understand is what kaister and SISs' view are on the idea of a Christian state and its pros and cons.
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
aiyah.... no need to get so worked out lah... no need for the strong languages lah. It's just a discussion.
[b]
The point of contend is really u claiming tat phillippines is not consider a catholic country simply because u view there r many "womanisers there from your personal knowledge". U also bash the faith of other people claiming they r not christian even though they say they r and they went to church. [b]Your original point of not stereotyping and generalise has been blatantly abuse by yourself by generalising american who go to church, not to be true christian or generalising phillipine people not to be catholic because they r womaniser. R u not guilty of practising the same charge u set ?[/b]
I apologise if I have been guilty... ok lah... you win again.
Nothing else to discuss already. -
Personally? I think they are picking on "Christian" issues that have gone wrong.Originally posted by ben1xy:Some additional points to add. In reiteration of what CE mentioned, lobbying on certain religions coulld serve as a political strategy to win votes. We cannot discount such a view. What i can't seem to understand is what kaister and SISs' view are on the idea of a Christian state and its pros and cons.
The trend seem to be: let's defend US's right to call themselves a Christian nation and later whack them for the wrongs they've done..... sigh.... nothing more to say already... -
Hi Chin,Originally posted by Chin Eng:hi kaister....
My point is, paraphasing ben... who defines what religion a country is?
If you refer to my link in my previous post, that website has got a very good ear to the ground on what religious state US is currently in. It might be true in the past where the pilgrims journeyed across the oceans to the new world and bringing with it their faith in God. However, is this true now?
Sure the US currency has "In God We Trust", it also have the Freemason's all seeing eye and the unfinished pyramid, decidedly pagan symbols - not very Christian is it? plus the ban on prayers and the mention of God in schools?
At the end of the day, we can all go point fingers at the US for because someone declared that it as a Christian nation and that it's prison is full of folks who called themselves Christian, then I really have nothing to say.
As I have said in another forum, let's have some balance here...
Going by your points, I infer that there's no way anyone can define a country as christian.
Majority does not count. Religion of their founders don't count. If they don't teach the bibles at school, the country don't count as a christian country either. May I ask then, can you give one good example of any country in the world that fits your criteria?
Perhaps you can refer to the overwhelming evidence provide by stupidissmart that points out why America is fundamentally a christian country.
Pilgrims don't travel to american to spread their faith now but undeniably even the president asks for God's blessings whenever they go to war. What you see in that website, is a consitutionally, politically correct way of not marginalising the other religions. They're just being polite.
Freemasonry is a fraternal organization whose membership is held together by shared moral and metaphysical ideals and—in most of its branches—by a constitutional declaration of belief in a Supreme Being (Definition from Wiki). Freemasons believe in God. The pyramid is not a symbol of pagans but a symbol of freemason's ancient roots from egypt. Also, addition of an enclosing triangle over the eye is usually seen as a more explicit trinitarian reference to the God of Christianity.
The ban on schools was reinforced so that religion will not infiltrate the teachings of science (See Peloza v. Capistrano School District, 1994). If not for the strong stand on seperating science from religion, do you think they will not start teaching creationism in schools?
Chin, please understand we're not pointing fingers at US to say they are christians, they have christians in prison so therefore they are bad. That's not true, as the proportion of christians in the prison = proportion of christians in the general population. Nothing wrong there. You're missing the point that all I ever wanted to say is that Atheists are generally more law abiding and are more conscious of their behaviour in the face of law. That's all -
i would sincerely like to hear your definition of a Christian State. Additionally, let's say u deem Phillipines to be a Catholic nation, is that a good or bad thing? or by your appriasal, a Christian state is a bad thing as it infringes on the basic tenets of religious freedom?
How do the international community gauge whether is a country a "muslim" country or a "catholic" country. Why don't we stick with universally accepted standards ? Phillipines being a "catholic" state, to me is a bad thing. But nevertheless I have to admit phillipines ia a catholic state because it is the truth. Whether it is a good thing or bad thing doesn't matterIf prayers and the spreading of the Gospel is prevented
Tat again changes depending on who is the president of america. It has been an american tradition tat there is prayer and bible lessons before.
Within the European frame of reference, there is no such thing as American Christendom - no centuries-old schools of theology, no tithes, no livings, no Church taxes, no establishment - there is only Christianity, which revives itself with terrible force in unknowing re-enactment of the past. It does not resemble what Europeans refer to by the word "religion". American Christianity is much closer to what the German pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer, writing in 1944 from his cell in Adolf Hitler's prison, called "religionless Christianity";. Soren Kierkegaard, I think, would have been pleased.
Wat is the bottomline ? U may feel their type of christianity differs from your, but they r still christainity
And therein is the paradox. America is simultaneously the most professedly Christian of the developed nations and the least Christian in its behavior. That paradox—more important, perhaps, than the much touted ability of French women to stay thin on a diet of chocolate and cheese—illuminates the hollow at the core of our boastful, careening culture.
Wat is the bottomline ? U may feel their type of christianity differs from your, but they r still christainity
Only 40 percent of Americans can name more than four of the Ten Commandments, and a scant half can cite any of the four authors of the Gospels. Twelve percent believe Joan of Arc was Noah's wife. This failure to recall the specifics of our Christian heritage may be further evidence of our nation's educational decline, but it probably doesn't matter all that much in spiritual or political terms. Here is a statistic that does matter: Three quarters of Americans believe the Bible teaches that “God helps those who help themselves.” That is, three out of four Americans believe that this uber-American idea, a notion at the core of our current individualist politics and culture, which was in fact uttered by Ben Franklin, actually appears in Holy Scripture. The thing is, not only is Franklin's wisdom not biblical; it's counter-biblical. Few ideas could be further from the gospel message, with its radical summons to love of neighbor. On this essential matter, most Americans—most American Christians—are simply wrong, as if 75 percent of American scientists believed that Newton proved gravity causes apples to fly up.
Wat is the bottomline ? U may feel their type of christianity differs from your, but they r still christainity
Numerically, the United States is a predominantly Christian nation. That's a factual statement -- just like the statement that historically, Christianity has been a major force in our public life. But to call the United States a "Christian nation" is an assertion of ideology, not fact -- particularly coming from the same corner as efforts to legislate religious beliefs about homosexuality or abortion.
I don't see why it is not a christian country because of the 2 factors above -
For a start, let me say that discussion with you is good. You are at least polite. If I'd infered that you're finger pointing, I sincerely apologise.Originally posted by kaister:Hi Chin,
Going by your points, I infer that there's no way anyone can define a country as christian.
Majority does not count. Religion of their founders don't count. If they don't teach the bibles at school, the country don't count as a christian country either. May I ask then, can you give one good example of any country in the world that fits your criteria?
Perhaps you can refer to the overwhelming evidence provide by stupidissmart that points out why America is fundamentally a christian country.
Pilgrims don't travel to american to spread their faith now but undeniably even the president asks for God's blessings whenever they go to war. What you see in that website, is a consitutionally, politically correct way of not marginalising the other religions. They're just being polite.
Freemasonry is a fraternal organization whose membership is held together by shared moral and metaphysical ideals and—in most of its branches—by a constitutional declaration of belief in a Supreme Being (Definition from Wiki). Freemasons believe in God. The pyramid is not a symbol of pagans but a symbol of freemason's ancient roots from egypt. Also, addition of an enclosing triangle over the eye is usually seen as a more explicit trinitarian reference to the God of Christianity.
The ban on schools was reinforced so that religion will not infiltrate the teachings of science (See Peloza v. Capistrano School District, 1994). If not for the strong stand on seperating science from religion, do you think they will not start teaching creationism in schools?
Chin, please understand we're not pointing fingers at US to say they are christians, they have christians in prison so therefore they are bad. That's not true, as the proportion of christians in the prison = proportion of christians in the general population. Nothing wrong there. You're missing the point that all I ever wanted to say is that Atheists are generally more law abiding and are more conscious of their behaviour in the face of law. That's all
The freemason thing is still an open issue - again depending on who you talk to. I agree with your last para. I will also state that some of the nicest people I've met are NOT Christians and some of the nastiest people in the world I've met ARE Christians.
.... so perhaps we should not dwell on whether US is or is not a Christian country.
.... and I totally agree with your first paragraph.
.... even though we are on the opposite sides of our beliefs, I can do business with you 
Cheers. -
Hi Kaister, IMO a real religious state is one where the law is superceded be religion - meaning theocracy, like certain Muslim countries (i will not go into the right and wrongs of this). Like in America, the Estabishment Clause establishes religious freedom. CE has pointed out some of the other things, so i shall not reiterate his point.Originally posted by kaister:Hi Chin,
Going by your points, I infer that there's no way anyone can define a country as christian.
Majority does not count. Religion of their founders don't count. If they don't teach the bibles at school, the country don't count as a christian country either. May I ask then, can you give one good example of any country in the world that fits your criteria?
You're missing the point that all I ever wanted to say is that Atheists are generally more law abiding and are more conscious of their behaviour in the face of law. That's all
Regarding the part about atheists, i will not comment. There are too many concomitent factors invloved and i feel sweeping statements are not needed. -
To SIS:
How do the international community gauge whether is a country a "muslim" country or a "catholic" country. Why don't we stick with universally accepted standards ? Phillipines being a "catholic" state, to me is a bad thing. But nevertheless I have to admit phillipines ia a catholic state because it is the truth. Whether it is a good thing or bad thing doesn't matter "
i would deem a theocracy to be a true religious state. To me, whether it is a good thing or bad thing is the pivotal factor. But if u do not wish to go there, i respect that.
My case that i am fighting for is religious rights. -
i would deem a theocracy to be a true religious state
Malaysia is a muslim country but their system follow british colonial rule. Phillipines also never went into theocracy but it is a catholic country. I can surely say your definition is not the internationally accepted one. I am also for religious right in countries, naturally since I am an atheist. -
Hi Ben,Originally posted by ben1xy:Hi Kaister, IMO a real religious state is one where the law is superceded be religion - meaning theocracy, like certain Muslim countries (i will not go into the right and wrongs of this). Like in America, the Estabishment Clause establishes religious freedom. CE has pointed out some of the other things, so i shall not reiterate his point.
Regarding the part about atheists, i will not comment. There are too many concomitent factors invloved and i feel sweeping statements are not needed.
as you can see, by your arguement, there will NEVER be a christian country. Even if there is one, most christians would deny that country as christian cos' it would be a fundamentalistic approach. Just like how some Muslims do not agree to the way how certain theocractic islamic countries work. At least we've come to agree that no way anyone of us can come up with a definition that everyone agrees
Furthermore, there's no point in debating if America is christian or not. I've no idea how simple stats came and brought about so much debate. All of you are missing the point I was trying to make. All the stats show is that most Atheists in US don't end up in prison when compared to the general population. Why? It's up to you to interpret.
I'm not a very intuitive person, but I kinda feel you don't agree to the conclusion I've made but yet you don't dare to voice it out directly. I don't blame you cos' this is a society where we are taught to be politically correct and nice, even when your emotions and heart is running wild with frustrations from the conflicting views presented.
But hey, that's what forums are for. So don't feel the need to hold back and let us discuss any doubts you have in mind. -
Actually, my education under a few very inspiring professors has taught me that only theocracy should ever be considered as a true religious state. But i can see where u're coming from. Actually, not all atheist believe in religious rights. Some of the Aetheist i speak to holds a strong view that religion should be wiped out. As long as u do not subscribe to such a view, i feel alrightOriginally posted by stupidissmart:Malaysia is a muslim country but their system follow british colonial rule. Phillipines also never went into theocracy but it is a catholic country. I can surely say your definition is not the internationally accepted one. I am also for religious right in countries, naturally since I am an atheist.