wad caused the 'breakaway'?
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Sigh... are you trying to say that scripture is weak? I opened the Bible, I found several verses about Church Traditions. 1 Cor 11 is only one of them. If you really want:Originally posted by Icemoon:Your argument is weak. They are not relevant to the issues at all.
The point about the assembly does not support Church Tradition. Firstly, as you said, Scripture has cleared the major dispute. So it is not a case where Scripture is silent and the assembly (actually the Jerusalem Church Council, then the highest council in Christianity) suka suka made their own decision. And even if they made a landmark decision .. it is biblical right? After all they are part of the bible accounts.
The claim that 1 Cor 11 refers to the Church Tradition is a weak one. Firstly, the Church Tradition rightly came from Peter, not Paul. Secondly what exactly are those traditions??
"...hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (not only written) 2 Thes 2:15
"Take as your norm the sound words that you heard from me." Not written but spoken. 2 Tim 1:13
".I would rather not use pen and ink, but hope to come to see you and talk with you face to face." 2 John 12
"I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth." John 16:12
2 Tim 3:16 does not condemn tradition.
Mat 15 condemns the traditions of men not apostolic tradition.
There are many other things that Jesus did. . the whole world could not hold the books that could be written. Jn 21:25
I have sent my angel to announce these things to you in the churches. Rev 22:16
1 Corinthians 11:2 . . . maintain the traditions . . . even as I have delivered them to you.
2 Thessalonians 3:6 . . . the tradition that you received from us.
1 Corinthians 15:1 . . . the gospel, which you received . . .
Galatians 1:9 . . . the gospel . . . which you received.
1 Thessalonians 2:9 . . . we preached to you the gospel of God.
Acts 8:14 . . . Samaria had received the word of God . . .
1 Thessalonians 2:13 . . . you received the word of God, which you heard from us, . . .
2 Peter 2:21 . . . the holy commandment delivered to them.
Jude 3 . . . the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints
Source:
http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/bible_catholics.htm -
What happened during baptism? Isn't that Holy Spirit is with you when you are baptized? So what if one's heart is opened, but then not willing to accept? How many gates do you think Heaven has? Jesus said one, and only one - John 14:6.Originally posted by Icemoon:Must you quote such an extreme example? My answer to that scenario can only be - he is baptized but is he saved? Is the Holy Spirit in him? Has the Holy Spirit opened his heart to the gospel so that he can receive it? And .. did he enter by the narrow or wide gate?
I dunno what parable of Lazarus and rich man.
Well, it is in your Bible, if you want to claim. Read Luke 16:19-31. -
Ben,Originally posted by ben1xy:hmm, this is an aspect which has also roused my interest. The Bible was finally compiled during the council of Hippo close to the end of the 4th century. And can we agree that the Bible was part a part of the Catholic Church? and also that it remained that way till the breakaway? Even the earlier Schism still held loyal to traditions.
So then, using the Bible that the Catholic Church used all this while, suddenly came this revelation that it was ok to just base everything on the Bible? and to throw away traditions which gone hand in hand all this while? Does that not sound weird?
did I say throw away traditions? I said the bible, being the written word of God should be held above traditions, and if there are any church practices or traditions that contridict the Bible than it should be thrown out.
period.
question? is the catholic traditions contridictory to the Bible? -
let me ask you one thing. do you believe that Mary is without sin?Originally posted by vince69:Ben,
did I say throw away traditions? I said the bible, being the written word of God should be held above traditions, and if there are any church practices or traditions that contridict the Bible than it should be thrown out.
period.
question? is the catholic traditions contridictory to the Bible? -
Yes, I think on this point I should be humble enough to let go. But we are here to argue for further understanding of our difference. Not for the sake of arguing. If you really want to bind to one single translation, then find the 4 A.D. version. If you insist that I am sweeping problem under the carpet, then I must have shown not enough Bible quotings to appease the crowd - I must do more Bible study.Originally posted by Icemoon:I am not discussing Purgatory with you now, rather I am interested in your using of that particular verse as support for purgatory.
Do not sweep the problem under the carpet and say it is due to 'variations in translations'.
Once again, please show me the full extent of the biblical quote that suggests that the guy is dead?
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What 4 A.D. version? Never heard of it.Originally posted by munyc:Yes, I think on this point I should be humble enough to let go. But we are here to argue for further understanding of our difference. Not for the sake of arguing. If you really want to bind to one single translation, then find the 4 A.D. version. If you insist that I am sweeping problem under the carpet, then I must have shown not enough Bible quotings to appease the crowd - I must do more Bible study.
Once again, where is the translation/verse that suggests that the guy is dead? -
wah leow .. here I am rebutting to every of your source with my own words.Originally posted by munyc:Sigh... are you trying to say that scripture is weak? I opened the Bible, I found several verses about Church Traditions. 1 Cor 11 is only one of them. If you really want:
No time. I shall pick and choose what to answer.
I am not a pro. You all should know I am not even union with Christ. -
NOOriginally posted by ben1xy:let me ask you one thing. do you believe that Mary is without sin?
on the basis
1) If Mary is without sin, then why Christ said
Mark 10:18
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.
and Paul?
Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
the word is ALL, meaning no exception, if Mary is without sin, then there will be exceptions
2) If Mary is without sin, then she do not need a savior, hence that means there is another way to God aside from Christ, making the following statement false, implying Jesus lied (which is an insult to Him)
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
3) if God made Mary without sin, what stops Him from making everyone without sin, thus spare Christ His Son from the cross? If God can remove sin with the sheding of blood, then He had just nullified His Laws. -
I think you are too busy replying than reading. Ben1xy quoted something about bible being compiled by the Church in 4th century. I suggest you trace back where actually you Bible comes from.Originally posted by Icemoon:What 4 A.D. version? Never heard of it.
Once again, where is the translation/verse that suggests that the guy is dead?
As for the translation, I see that you really want to go word by word explanation. And now I tell you this. I was and am in my office. I need sleep. I will leave now to wait for God to give me dreams so that I can reply you tomorrow.
If this does not appease you, go to the following site to find out yourself. I really 'boh lat' liao... But don't get me wrong, just because I got not enough sleep, that's all...
http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/purgatory.htm#Purgatory%20in%20Scripture -
hmm... lets see, the church at that time is still under persecutions and exist mainly in the form of pockets of believers and not like what we know today, what does all these traditions refer to then?Originally posted by munyc:Sigh... are you trying to say that scripture is weak? I opened the Bible, I found several verses about Church Traditions. 1 Cor 11 is only one of them. If you really want:
"...hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter" (not only written) 2 Thes 2:15
"Take as your norm the sound words that you heard from me." Not written but spoken. 2 Tim 1:13
".I would rather not use pen and ink, but hope to come to see you and talk with you face to face." 2 John 12
"I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth." John 16:12
2 Tim 3:16 does not condemn tradition.
Mat 15 condemns the traditions of men not apostolic tradition.
There are many other things that Jesus did. . the whole world could not hold the books that could be written. Jn 21:25
I have sent my angel to announce these things to you in the churches. Rev 22:16
1 Corinthians 11:2 . . . maintain the traditions . . . even as I have delivered them to you.
2 Thessalonians 3:6 . . . the tradition that you received from us.
1 Corinthians 15:1 . . . the gospel, which you received . . .
Galatians 1:9 . . . the gospel . . . which you received.
1 Thessalonians 2:9 . . . we preached to you the gospel of God.
Acts 8:14 . . . Samaria had received the word of God . . .
1 Thessalonians 2:13 . . . you received the word of God, which you heard from us, . . .
2 Peter 2:21 . . . the holy commandment delivered to them.
Jude 3 . . . the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints
Source:
http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/bible_catholics.htm
since all the apostles are Jews (or at least most of them), can these traditions refer to the Jewish traditions? -
compiled in the 4th century, written way before that...Originally posted by munyc:I think you are too busy replying than reading. Ben1xy quoted something about bible being compiled by the Church in 4th century. I suggest you trace back where actually you Bible comes from.
As for the translation, I see that you really want to go word by word explanation. And now I tell you this. I was and am in my office. I need sleep. I will leave now to wait for God to give me dreams so that I can reply you tomorrow.
If this does not appease you, go to the following site to find out yourself. I really 'boh lat' liao... But don't get me wrong, just because I got not enough sleep, that's all...
http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/purgatory.htm#Purgatory%20in%20Scripture
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Duh... then I am right la... you argue just for the sake of arguing...Originally posted by Icemoon:I am not a pro. You all should know I am not even union with Christ.
Anyway, it's good, at least can provoke more discussion, and improve the rating as well...
Hope we don't freak despondent away...
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The author of this argument, either he failed his comprehension or his bible cheong one.Originally posted by ben1xy:Reply to Objection 1. This was an argument of Nestorius, and it is solved by saying that, although we do not find it said expressly in Scripture that the Blessed Virgin is the Mother of God, yet we do find it expressly said in Scripture that "Jesus Christ is true God," as may be seen 1 John 5:20, and that the Blessed Virgin is the "Mother of Jesus Christ," which is clearly expressed Mt. 1:18. Therefore, from the words of Scripture it follows of necessity that she is the Mother of God.1 John 5:20 -
Question - who is "He is the true God" referring to?
And we know that the Son of God is come: and he hath given us understanding that we may know the true God, and may be in his true Son. This is the true God and life eternal. (Douay Rheims)
We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. (NIV)
We are well aware also that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know the One who is true. We are
in the One who is true as we are in his Son, Jesus Christ. He is the true God and this is eternal life. (NJB)
(Chinese Union Bible)
I say "He" DOES NOT refer to Jesus Christ, but God, ie. the Father. The verse is talking about Jesus Christ pointing us to the Father isn't it?
What say you? -
Haha.. this thread is getting fun...
btw... nobody will disbute that Mary is the mother of Jesus, nor that she is blessed and highly favored, nor that we should ascertain to her certain level of respect.
But to call her Mother of God, Queen of Heavens, one without sin ..etc, is just over the board... -
for the sake of rating you mean?Originally posted by munyc:Duh... then I am right la... you argue just for the sake of arguing... -
and our Church Fathers say this:Originally posted by vince69:NO
on the basis
1) If Mary is without sin, then why Christ said
Mark 10:18
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.
and Paul?
Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
the word is ALL, meaning no exception, if Mary is without sin, then there will be exceptions
2) If Mary is without sin, then she do not need a savior, hence that means there is another way to God aside from Christ, making the following statement false, implying Jesus lied (which is an insult to Him)
John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
3) if God made Mary without sin, what stops Him from making everyone without sin, thus spare Christ His Son from the cross? If God can remove sin with the sheding of blood, then He had just nullified His Laws.
Even before the terms "original sin" and "immaculate conception" had been defined, early passages imply the doctrines. Many works mention that Mary gave birth to Jesus without pain. But pain in childbearing is part of the penalty of original sin (Gen. 3:16). Thus, Mary could not have been under that penalty. By GodÂ’s grace, she was immaculate in anticipation of her SonÂ’s redemptive death on the cross. The Church therefore describes Mary as "the most excellent fruit of redemption" (CCC 50
.
The Ascension of Isaiah
"[T]he report concerning the child was noised abroad in Bethlehem. Some said, ‘The Virgin Mary has given birth before she was married two months.’ And many said, ‘She has not given birth; the midwife has not gone up to her, and we heard no cries of pain’" (Ascension of Isaiah 11 [A.D. 70]).
The Odes of Solomon
"So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies. And she labored and bore the Son, but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose. And she did not seek a midwife, because he caused her to give life. She bore as a strong man, with will . . . " (Odes of Solomon 19 [A.D. 80]).
Justin Martyr
"[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course which was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied ‘Be it done unto me according to your word’ [Luke 1:38]" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 100 [A.D. 155]).
So can we agree to disagree? -
or it's in line with Catholic teachingOriginally posted by vince69:Haha.. this thread is getting fun...
btw... nobody will disbute that Mary is the mother of Jesus, nor that she is blessed and highly favored, nor that we should ascertain to her certain level of respect.
But to call her Mother of God, Queen of Heavens, one without sin ..etc, is just over the board... -
this month rating will be very jiat lat lahOriginally posted by Icemoon:for the sake of rating you mean?
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Baptism is just a ritual. After all there are many who backslide after their baptism.Originally posted by munyc:What happened during baptism? Isn't that Holy Spirit is with you when you are baptized? So what if one's heart is opened, but then not willing to accept? How many gates do you think Heaven has? Jesus said one, and only one - John 14:6.
Well, it is in your Bible, if you want to claim. Read Luke 16:19-31.
If your heart is opened and you are not willing to accept, is the heart really opened?
Interesting. Is this the same Lazarus that was resurrected by Jesus?
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written 70 - 100 AD for the Gospels. Epistles were before that.Originally posted by vince69:compiled in the 4th century, written way before that...
And circulated among the Church that only the Catholic Church can trace its lineage to. Does this not account for anything? Would we do up traditions that contradict the Bible which also came abt from our Church Fathers through the Holy Spirit? -
oh no .. if vince says yes .. our month's rating will be jialat for sure.Originally posted by ben1xy:So can we agree to disagree?
where is davidche who is supposed to jian shou zhen li? -
At the Council of Nicea, where finally.. the Church established for once and for all the Divinity of Jesus in that he is Fully God and Fully Man.Originally posted by Icemoon:Baptism is just a ritual. After all there are many who backslide after their baptism.
If your heart is opened and you are not willing to accept, is the heart really opened?
Interesting. Is this the same Lazarus that was resurrected by Jesus?
Nicene Creed
We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
U choose to acknowledge the first part but choose to overlook the baptism bit? or u just choose to look at the nicene creed of 325? -
i think he gave up liaoOriginally posted by Icemoon:oh no .. if vince says yes .. our month's rating will be jialat for sure.
where is davidche who is supposed to jian shou zhen li? -
it's been a few weeks since EH has been this busy at night
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and my Bible says otherwise...Originally posted by ben1xy:and our Church Fathers say this:
So can we agree to disagree?
can we disagree? sure... I have no problem with this... there is no need to agree on everything...