wad caused the 'breakaway'?
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The Magisterium post above explains the authority of the Church.Originally posted by Icemoon:It was not about any of those issues since Luther's belief on the Lord's Sacrament is arguably closer to the Catholic version than the quintessential Protestant version.
So the issue is about the authority of the Bible v.s. the authority of the Church.
And, for Sola Scriptura, see the following quotes:
Acts 8:30-31 Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch...reading the prophet Isaiah... (Philip) asked "do you understand what you are reading?" He replied "How can I unless someone guides me?" and he invited Philip to get in and sit beside him.
- Philip, who was an apostle and a representative of Christ's Church, helped teh eunuch interpret the Scripture.
John 21:25 There are also many other things that Jesus did; if every one of them were written down, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that could be written.
- How could sola scriptura explain this verse, if there is Truth beyond the limits of paper/books?
John 16:12-13 "I have yet many things to tell you, but you can't bear them now. However when He, the Spirit of Truth, has come, He will guide you into all Truth, for He will not speak from Himself; but whatever He hears, He will speak. He will declare to you things that are coming."
- Jesus said that the Holy Spirit, not scripture, guides us all to the completeness of Truth
And the following is interesting. A passage in Bible quoting words from Enoch. Throughout all the 73 books in the Bible, there is no records of Enoch saying anything. All we know about Enoch in the Bible is that Enoch is one of the two known Bible characters who, at age 375 years, were raptured, body and soul, to Heaven.
Jude 1:14-15 About these also Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their works of ungodliness which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."
- This proves that Bible is not all that's it. Church authority must place a part, and Jude has portrayed that point hereby.
To sum it up, Catholics do believe that everything that is in the Bible is true. However, Catholics never claim that everything that is true is in the Bible. -
wah ... munyc .. u have been busy i see
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LOL! I am still amused by your earlier comment.Originally posted by ben1xy:wah ... munyc .. u have been busy i see
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Originally posted by munyc:
* raise hands
Note that Paul prayed for Onesiphorous after he died, "may the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the lord on that day" (2nd Timothy 1:16-18 ). If he is either in Heaven or Hell, the prayer would not make sense, because the souls in Heaven don't need prayers anymore, and souls in Hell no longer have the ability to receive prayer. So where is the soul whom Paul thinks still in need of prayer?
how come 2nd Tim 1:16-18 so different from the NIV Bible and New American Standard version????2 Tim 1 : 16 - 18
how can a dead man go to Rome and search hard for Paul? if he is not dead, then prayers to him would have made sense too, right?
16May the Lord show mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains. 17On the contrary, when he was in Rome, he searched hard for me until he found me. 18May the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! You know very well in how many ways he helped me in Ephesus. -
Umm... I guess scripture never mentions whether Onesiphorus is alive or dead when Paul said the prayer, but from the last verse, it sounds that Onesiphorus must have passed away.Originally posted by vince69:how can a dead man go to Rome and search hard for Paul? if he is not dead, then prayers to him would have made sense too, right?
It is usual to find different ways the verses is put. I attended Friday Prayer Meeting here, and whenever the speaker quotes verses from his Bible, I will usually strain my ear to match his text with mine from my own Bible. -
Originally posted by munyc:
You made the same mistake as sgMacross. The Lord, or God Incarnate, is never the same as God. Furthermore, the verse only says Lord .. how dare you take the liberty and say it is equivalent to God?
And lastly, especially to Icemoon:
[b]Mary Mother of God
Luke 1:43
Elizabeth exclaimed "mother of my Lord". Who is "my Lord"? God, right? Anyway, by saying Mother of God, Catholics do not intend to place Mary as above God. Mary said herself that she is a handmaid of God (Luke 1:38, 1:48a). She even said that she needs God as her Saviour (Luke 1:47).[/b]
Why does she need God as her Saviour? Isn't she without sin? Hah. -
qiang2 ci2 duo2 li3.Originally posted by munyc:Umm... I guess scripture never mentions whether Onesiphorus is alive or dead when Paul said the prayer, but from the last verse, it sounds that Onesiphorus must have passed away.
It is usual to find different ways the verses is put. I attended Friday Prayer Meeting here, and whenever the speaker quotes verses from his Bible, I will usually strain my ear to match his text with mine from my own Bible.
Let me quote the more authoritative Douay-Rheims Bible:16 The Lord give mercy to the house of Onesiphorus: because he hath often refreshed me, and hath not been ashamed of my chain: 17 But when he was come to Rome, he carefully sought me, and found me. 18 The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou very well knowest.
How the hell can someone infer that Onesiphorus is dead from these verses??
You last time comprehension get how many marks one? -
Originally posted by munyc:
Your explanation does not match your title. You say works are important, the good ones celebrate God's Glory etc. But how does that equate to SALVATION?
[b]Salvation by Faith and Works
James 2:14-26 - Faith without works is dead
Matthew 28:20 - The Great Commission, call to work for Christ's ministry - evangelize
Catholics believe well that by merely having faith is not enough. As James said, faith without works is dead. Many parables and stories in Jesus' time show that faith has to be accompanied with good works that celebrate God's Glory.
There are more scriptural quotes which states the importance of works. Here are some, copied from the web:
Matt 7:16-20, Matt 19:21, Matt 25:31-46, Matt 25:15-28, 2 Cor 5:10, Rev 20:12-13, Luke 19:6-9, Gal 6:2, Gal 6:4, 1 Cor 9:16, James 5:20, Jer. 17:10; 32:19[/b]
Furthermore, Protestants never say works are not important. But good works is never part of the salvation plan, only faith is. -
Phew, just finished the whole thread, and many topics are brought up at one time.
Just my humble note:
Despondent - I like the way you yearn for knowledge. Keep it up. Hope this thread would not be too intellectual to accept. If I were here 10 years ago (with all these topics brought up), I myself would be totally lost.
Icemoon - Just to clarify, Catholic beliefs are all scriptural, just that our way of treating the authenticity of the Bible is slightly different. As I said, all words in Bible is truth, but not all truth is in the Bible. We do take into account early Church writings.
I would not deny that there are some lukewarm / Sunday Catholics who deviate in there own practices until a point that it seems Catholics are non-scriptural Christians. But I do trust that all Catholics that pop up in this forum (
Ben, SGF, myself ) are serious Catholics.
Things did happen in the past, especially during Reformation is clearly due to the corruption of some members of the Church. But that does not stop us from striving for Revival, which did happen (although a bit too late). -
What mistake have I made??Originally posted by Icemoon:You made the same mistake as sgMacross. The Lord, or God Incarnate, is never the same as God. Furthermore, the verse only says Lord .. how dare you take the liberty and say it is equivalent to God?
Why does she need God as her Saviour? Isn't she without sin? Hah.
Do you mean Jesus who was in Mary's womb 2000 years ago is not God, just a Man? I do not think so. Or, is Jesus the Man walking around Judea/Galilee for 33 years is not God? I do not think so.
The doctrine of Immaculate Conception, as I said, was based on Luke 1:28. The Greek word "kecharitomene" literally means "full of grace". How full is full? I think I've explained much earlier.
Mary was born without sin, yes. But scripture never mention that Mary does not need God as Saviour, because as Jesus said, He is the Way, the Truth, a nd the Life; and He is the Vine - any branches cut off Him is useless. She still needs the Fruit of her womb, Jesus, to save her. -
Originally posted by munyc:
To sum it up, we believe that everything in the Bible is true, and anything that contridicts the Bible and/or its principle, be it The Magisterium/Church Teachings or Church Traditions/Practices, can only be regards as false.
To sum it up, Catholics do believe that everything that is in the Bible is true. However, Catholics never claim that everything that is true is in the Bible.[/b]
In short, Sola Scriptura means the Bible alone reigns and supercede over both church teachings and traditions. -
I am not hiding in any place, but I would not proceed arguing with you on this. There are too many variations in translations, and I definitely cannot use my Bible to convince you, nor yours to convince me. I suggest you read the verses that I put (err... I don't want any credit, so I rephrase... I searched from the web). If you find anything in the Bible that is against Purgatory, I am happy to listen to your sharings.Originally posted by Icemoon:How the hell can someone infer that Onesiphorus is dead from these verses??
You last time comprehension get how many marks one?
And btw, I failed comprehension before, if you really want to know... -
hmm, this is an aspect which has also roused my interest. The Bible was finally compiled during the council of Hippo close to the end of the 4th century. And can we agree that the Bible was part a part of the Catholic Church? and also that it remained that way till the breakaway? Even the earlier Schism still held loyal to traditions.Originally posted by vince69:To sum it up, we believe that everything in the Bible is true, and anything that contridicts the Bible and/or its principle, be it The Magisterium/Church Teachings or Church Traditions/Practices, can only be regards as false.
In short, Sola Scriptura means the Bible alone reigns and supercede over both church teachings and traditions.
So then, using the Bible that the Catholic Church used all this while, suddenly came this revelation that it was ok to just base everything on the Bible? and to throw away traditions which gone hand in hand all this while? Does that not sound weird? -
icemoon. the next post is for your reading (part of the summa theologica) as it touches on certain things that u mentioned.
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http://www.newadvent.org/summa/403504.htm
Whether the Blessed Virgin should be called the Mother of God?
Objection 1. It would seem that the Blessed Virgin should not be called the Mother of God. For in the Divine mysteries we should not make any assertion that is not taken from Holy Scripture. But we read nowhere in Holy Scripture that she is the mother or parent of God, but that she is the "mother of Christ" or of "the Child," as may be seen from Mt. 1:18. Therefore we should not say that the Blessed Virgin is the Mother of God.
Objection 2. Further, Christ is called God in respect of His Divine Nature. But the Divine Nature did not first originate from the Virgin. Therefore the Blessed Virgin should not be called the Mother of God.
Objection 3. Further, the word "God" is predicated in common of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. If, therefore, the Blessed Virgin is Mother of God it seems to follow that she was the Mother of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, which cannot be allowed. Therefore the Blessed Virgin should not be called Mother of God.
On the contrary, In the chapters of Cyril, approved in the Council of Ephesus (P. 1, Cap. xxvi), we read: "If anyone confess not that the Emmanuel is truly God, and that for this reason the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God, since she begot of her flesh the Word of God made flesh, let him be anathema."
I answer that, As stated above (16, 1), every word that signifies a nature in the concrete can stand for any hypostasis of that nature. Now, since the union of Incarnation took place in the hypostasis, as above stated (2, 3), it is manifest that this word "God" can stand for the hypostasis, having a human and a Divine nature. Therefore whatever belongs to the Divine and to the human nature can be attributed to that Person: both when a word is employed to stand for it, signifying the Divine Nature, and when a word is used signifying the human nature. Now, conception and birth are attributed to the person and hypostasis in respect of that nature in which it is conceived and born. Since, therefore, the human nature was taken by the Divine Person in the very beginning of the conception, as stated above (33, 3), it follows that it can be truly said that God was conceived and born of the Virgin. Now from this is a woman called a man's mother, that she conceived him and gave birth to him. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is truly called the Mother of God. For the only way in which it could be denied that the Blessed Virgin is the Mother of God would be either if the humanity were first subject to conception and birth, before this man were the Son of God, as Photinus said; or if the humanity were not assumed unto unity of the Person or hypostasis of the Word of God, as Nestorius maintained. But both of these are erroneous. Therefore it is heretical to deny that the Blessed Virgin is the Mother of God.
Reply to Objection 1. This was an argument of Nestorius, and it is solved by saying that, although we do not find it said expressly in Scripture that the Blessed Virgin is the Mother of God, yet we do find it expressly said in Scripture that "Jesus Christ is true God," as may be seen 1 John 5:20, and that the Blessed Virgin is the "Mother of Jesus Christ," which is clearly expressed Mt. 1:18. Therefore, from the words of Scripture it follows of necessity that she is the Mother of God.
Again, it is written (Romans 9:5) that Christ is of the Jews "according to the flesh, who is over all things, God blessed for ever." But He is not of the Jews except through the Blessed Virgin. Therefore He who is "above all things, God blessed for ever," is truly born of the Blessed Virgin as of His Mother.
Reply to Objection 2. This was an argument of Nestorius. But Cyril, in a letter against Nestorius [Cf. Acta Conc. Ephes., p. 1, cap. ii, answers it thus: "Just as when a man's soul is born with its body, they are considered as one being: and if anyone wish to say that the mother of the flesh is not the mother of the soul, he says too much. Something like this may be perceived in the generation of Christ. For the Word of God was born of the substance of God the Father: but because He took flesh, we must of necessity confess that in the flesh He was born of a woman." Consequently we must say that the Blessed Virgin is called the Mother of God, not as though she were the Mother of the Godhead, but because she is the mother, according to His human nature, of the Person who has both the divine and the human nature.
Reply to Objection 3. Although the name "God" is common to the three Persons, yet sometimes it stands for the Person of the Father alone, sometimes only for the Person of the Son or of the Holy Ghost, as stated above (16, 1; I, 39, 4). So that when we say, "The Blessed Virgin is the Mother of God," this word "God" stands only for the incarnate Person of the Son. -
How can Mary be born without sin?Originally posted by munyc:What mistake have I made??
Do you mean Jesus who was in Mary's womb 2000 years ago is not God, just a Man? I do not think so. Or, is Jesus the Man walking around Judea/Galilee for 33 years is not God? I do not think so.
The doctrine of Immaculate Conception, as I said, was based on Luke 1:28. The Greek word "kecharitomene" literally means "full of grace". How full is full? I think I've explained much earlier.
Mary was born without sin, yes. But scripture never mention that Mary does not need God as Saviour, because as Jesus said, He is the Way, the Truth, a nd the Life; and He is the Vine - any branches cut off Him is useless. She still needs the Fruit of her womb, Jesus, to save her.
If its needed for Mary to be born without sin, so that Christ can be born without sin, does that also means the Mary's mother have to be born without sin, so that Mary can be born with sin? ... and so on?
If Mary can be born without sin, even through her mother is with sin, then why can't Christ be born without sin yet through Mary who is still with sin? is Mary more precious than Christ?
??? Luke 1:28
(NASB)28And coming in, he said to her, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you."
(NIV)28The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."
(KJV)28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. -
Originally posted by munyc:
Your argument is weak. They are not relevant to the issues at all.
Btw, Icemoon, if you want scriptural reference, here it is. I added scriptural reference for Magisterium. Btw, I have posted this in EH as well.
[b]Magisterium - Matthew 18:16-17 - Jesus talks to the referral to matters to assembly. Acts 15 talks about the assembly formed to clear a major dispute, even when Scripture seem to have cleared it.
Tradition - This refers to Church Tradition, not human tradition. See 1 Cor 11:2.[/b]
The point about the assembly does not support Church Tradition. Firstly, as you said, Scripture has cleared the major dispute. So it is not a case where Scripture is silent and the assembly (actually the Jerusalem Church Council, then the highest council in Christianity) suka suka made their own decision. And even if they made a landmark decision .. it is biblical right? After all they are part of the bible accounts.
The claim that 1 Cor 11 refers to the Church Tradition is a weak one. Firstly, the Church Tradition rightly came from Peter, not Paul. Secondly what exactly are those traditions?? -
I am not discussing Purgatory with you now, rather I am interested in your using of that particular verse as support for purgatory.Originally posted by munyc:I am not hiding in any place, but I would not proceed arguing with you on this. There are too many variations in translations, and I definitely cannot use my Bible to convince you, nor yours to convince me. I suggest you read the verses that I put (err... I don't want any credit, so I rephrase... I searched from the web). If you find anything in the Bible that is against Purgatory, I am happy to listen to your sharings.
And btw, I failed comprehension before, if you really want to know...
Do not sweep the problem under the carpet and say it is due to 'variations in translations'.
Once again, please show me the full extent of the biblical quote that suggests that the guy is dead? -
Imagine. You have faith in God (I am sure you do), you are already baptized (I am sure you are). Let's say, you met a man hurt by the roadside. You sit there and do nothing. You watch him to die. One minute after the man die, you somehow met with an accident and die. Will you have a place in Heaven? Will you receive salvation?Originally posted by Icemoon:Your explanation does not match your title. You say works are important, the good ones celebrate God's Glory etc. But how does that equate to SALVATION?
Furthermore, Protestants never say works are not important. But good works is never part of the salvation plan, only faith is.
Read the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man seemingly did nothing wrong. He simply ignored (or put it in better words, did not take notice of Lazarus' existence). Look where Jesus said he has landed up. -
Vince, you don't understand the Catholic argument.Originally posted by vince69:How can Mary be born without sin?
If its needed for Mary to be born without sin, so that Christ can be born without sin, does that also means the Mary's mother have to be born without sin, so that Mary can be born with sin? ... and so on?
If Mary can be born without sin, even through her mother is with sin, then why can't Christ be born without sin yet through Mary who is still with sin? is Mary more precious than Christ?
Mary has to be without sin because the 100% Man of Jesus came from Mary. If God made it too supernatural, ie. Mary is just a surrogate mum, then where did Jesus' humanity come from? -
seems like our bible very differentOriginally posted by ben1xy:http://www.newadvent.org/summa/403504.htm
Whether the Blessed Virgin should be called the Mother of God?
Objection 1. It would seem that the Blessed Virgin should not be called the Mother of God. For in the Divine mysteries we should not make any assertion that is not taken from Holy Scripture. But we read nowhere in Holy Scripture that she is the mother or parent of God, but that she is the "mother of Christ" or of "the Child," as may be seen from Mt. 1:18. Therefore we should not say that the Blessed Virgin is the Mother of God.
Objection 2. Further, Christ is called God in respect of His Divine Nature. But the Divine Nature did not first originate from the Virgin. Therefore the Blessed Virgin should not be called the Mother of God.
Objection 3. Further, the word "God" is predicated in common of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. If, therefore, the Blessed Virgin is Mother of God it seems to follow that she was the Mother of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, which cannot be allowed. Therefore the Blessed Virgin should not be called Mother of God.
On the contrary, In the chapters of Cyril, approved in the Council of Ephesus (P. 1, Cap. xxvi), we read: "If anyone confess not that the Emmanuel is truly God, and that for this reason the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God, since she begot of her flesh the Word of God made flesh, let him be anathema."
I answer that, As stated above (16, 1), every word that signifies a nature in the concrete can stand for any hypostasis of that nature. Now, since the union of Incarnation took place in the hypostasis, as above stated (2, 3), it is manifest that this word "God" can stand for the hypostasis, having a human and a Divine nature. Therefore whatever belongs to the Divine and to the human nature can be attributed to that Person: both when a word is employed to stand for it, signifying the Divine Nature, and when a word is used signifying the human nature. Now, conception and birth are attributed to the person and hypostasis in respect of that nature in which it is conceived and born. Since, therefore, the human nature was taken by the Divine Person in the very beginning of the conception, as stated above (33, 3), it follows that it can be truly said that God was conceived and born of the Virgin. Now from this is a woman called a man's mother, that she conceived him and gave birth to him. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is truly called the Mother of God. For the only way in which it could be denied that the Blessed Virgin is the Mother of God would be either if the humanity were first subject to conception and birth, before this man were the Son of God, as Photinus said; or if the humanity were not assumed unto unity of the Person or hypostasis of the Word of God, as Nestorius maintained. But both of these are erroneous. Therefore it is heretical to deny that the Blessed Virgin is the Mother of God.
Reply to Objection 1. This was an argument of Nestorius, and it is solved by saying that, although we do not find it said expressly in Scripture that the Blessed Virgin is the Mother of God, yet we do find it expressly said in Scripture that "Jesus Christ is true God," as may be seen 1 John 5:20, and that the Blessed Virgin is the "Mother of Jesus Christ," which is clearly expressed Mt. 1:18. Therefore, from the words of Scripture it follows of necessity that she is the Mother of God.
Again, it is written (Romans 9:5) that Christ is of the Jews "according to the flesh, who is over all things, God blessed for ever." But He is not of the Jews except through the Blessed Virgin. Therefore He who is "above all things, God blessed for ever," is truly born of the Blessed Virgin as of His Mother.
Roman 9 : 1-5 (NKJV)
1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen[a] according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.
Roman 9 : 1-5 (NIV)
1I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit— 2I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised![a] Amen. -
How can Mary be born without sin? Good question. Ask God.Originally posted by vince69:How can Mary be born without sin?
If its needed for Mary to be born without sin, so that Christ can be born without sin, does that also means the Mary's mother have to be born without sin, so that Mary can be born with sin? ... and so on?
If Mary can be born without sin, even through her mother is with sin, then why can't Christ be born without sin yet through Mary who is still with sin? is Mary more precious than Christ?
??? Luke 1:28
(NASB)28And coming in, he said to her, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you."
(NIV)28The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."
(KJV)28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. -
nicely summarisedOriginally posted by Icemoon:Vince, you don't understand the Catholic argument.
Mary has to be without sin because the 100% Man of Jesus came from Mary. If God made it too supernatural, ie. Mary is just a surrogate mum, then where did Jesus' humanity come from? -
seems like the books in the NT were decided by our Church Fathers through the guidance of the Holy SpiritOriginally posted by vince69:seems like our bible very different -
Must you quote such an extreme example? My answer to that scenario can only be - he is baptized but is he saved? Is the Holy Spirit in him? Has the Holy Spirit opened his heart to the gospel so that he can receive it? And .. did he enter by the narrow or wide gate?Originally posted by munyc:Imagine. You have faith in God (I am sure you do), you are already baptized (I am sure you are). Let's say, you met a man hurt by the roadside. You sit there and do nothing. You watch him to die. One minute after the man die, you somehow met with an accident and die. Will you have a place in Heaven? Will you receive salvation?
Read the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man seemingly did nothing wrong. He simply ignored (or put it in better words, did not take notice of Lazarus' existence). Look where Jesus said he has landed up.
I dunno what parable of Lazarus and rich man.