wad caused the 'breakaway'?
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Bye ben
Sometimes battle also must know when to rest when to fight -
anyway, i shall continue this tomorrow icey
just post your replies, i'll reply to it tomorrow evening -
words of wisdomOriginally posted by laurence82:Bye ben
Sometimes battle also must know when to rest when to fight
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I am all for living out the Gospel but this wasn't my point.Originally posted by ben1xy:There's where we differ icey. To me, the way to touch and convert ppl is not through intellectual debates but rather to live the Gospel (not that i am ). Relying on intellect to understand God? i dun see how that can be achieved. When debates come in, pride comes in too. Both u n me are not exempted from that. And when pride comes in, i do not see how one converts. The loser will just find more resources to fire back.
I'm more concerned with how Christians relate to the world at large.
I'll skip all the grand talk but just think of this - the only way to relate to non believers is through reason. If your reasoning is sloppy or if you resort to calling people names, you only make them more dulan with the faith, and reinforce their mentality that Christianity is a shitty religion. I suspect skyfoo and nus have worse impression of Christianity now than before.
When debate come in, pride comes in too. So it is time to be humble isn't it? Whether you are believer or atheist, we should always have that humble attitude. There are people who complain EH people are not that humble, compared to those in our competitor forum.
More resources to fire back? If you can find the right resources and are sufficiently convinced yourself, why not? Put forward a cogent argument. Check all your sources. But I don't see some of you doing that. -
I can't help but to notice the local catholic churches tributes lesser of Christ and more of the saints and Mary.Originally posted by ben1xy:i would question such a criticism. In fact, didn't the doctrine of other issues like Trinity, Divinity of Jesus, Sacramental Issues, Nicene Creed, etc come from the Catholic Church?
the reason why Marian Doctrine keeps coming up is because we cannot agree on this issue. Protestants and Catholics both agree on the Trinity and the Divinity of Jesus, Salvation through Faith, so definitely we wun be having dialogue on these issues.[/quote]
I respect your defense.
[quote]However, to say that we place Mary above Christ is not a fair criticism and it goes against the very teachings on the Catholic Church.
btw, u've been MIA for quite some time MC!
I may be wrong, and admit i do not have the depth of understanding why more local churches decide to tribute to Mary and the Saints.
My observations of Catholic believers carrying photos of Virgin Mary in their wallets, on cars etc. Have somehow casted this mindset.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_Catholic_churches_in_Singapore -
Ouch .. look like I have to eat the humble pie.
I was careful enough to say "creed" and admittedly there weren't any respectable creeds in his reply.
Maybe can bring out the Spong argument as counter .. but oh well. -
It looks like the saints are mostly or all NT figures.Originally posted by M©+square:I can't help but to notice the local catholic churches tributes lesser of Christ and more of the saints and Mary.
I may be wrong, and admit i do not have the depth of understanding why more local churches decide to tribute to Mary and the Saints.
My observations of Catholic believers carrying photos of Virgin Mary in their wallets, on cars etc. Have somehow casted this mindset.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_Catholic_churches_in_Singapore
A bit unfair if you ask me.
I want my Church of Enoch and Elijah.
As to why they carry photo of Virgin Mary .. I believe it is psychological. Not that they don't have photo of Jesus Christ, but the photo of a woman gives you the he2 ai1 ke3 qing1 feeling .. don't you think so? You know .. the tender loving care and motherly love feeling. A guy just remind me of a strict disciplinarian (sp?) .. haha -
When I rest .. it means the battle has been lost.Originally posted by laurence82:Bye ben
Sometimes battle also must know when to rest when to fight -
Its abt winning and losing?
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You heard of se2 zan4 qun2 xiong2? Made famous by Zhuge Liang. So yeah, in a sense it is a battle, which means there are winners and losers.Originally posted by laurence82:Its abt winning and losing?
Of course if you lose, you should gan1 bai4 xia4 feng1.
Ratings aside, perhaps some of you might liek to be acquainted with dialectic and the Socratic method below:In classical philosophy, dialectic (Greek: äéáëåêôéêÞ) is an exchange of proposition (theses) and counter-propositions (antitheses) resulting in a synthesis of the opposing assertions, or at least a qualitative transformation in the direction of the dialogue. It is one of the three original liberal arts or trivium (the other members are rhetoric and grammar) in Western culture. In ancient and medieval times, both rhetoric and dialectic were understood to aim at being persuasive (through dialogue). The aim of the dialectical method, often known as dialectic or dialectics, is to try to resolve the disagreement through rational discussion. One way — the Socratic method — is to show that a given hypothesis (with other admissions) leads to a contradiction; thus, forcing the withdrawal of the hypothesis as a candidate for truth. Another way of trying to resolve a disagreement is by denying some presupposition of the contending thesis and antithesis; thereby moving to a third (syn)thesis.(I)
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i agree with thisOriginally posted by Icemoon:if you resort to calling people names, you only make them more dulan with the faith, and reinforce their mentality that Christianity is a shitty religion. I suspect skyfoo and nus have worse impression of Christianity now than before.
definitely agree with tisOriginally posted by Icemoon:When debate come in, pride comes in too. So it is time to be humble isn't it? Whether you are believer or atheist, we should always have that humble attitude. There are people who complain EH people are not that humble, compared to those in our competitor forum.
icey i have spoken to many chrstians. i'm sure u have too. i have heard countless of testimonies like many of us here.Originally posted by Icemoon:More resources to fire back? If you can find the right resources and are sufficiently convinced yourself, why not? Put forward a cogent argument. Check all your sources. But I don't see some of you doing that.
i have nv come across a person that converted because of debate or through theological reasoning? u might disagree but i would think that it's because reasoning appeals to u. then again this is all my own personal opinion. -
i would agree with u MC that some Catholics have lost their focus. that i do not deny.Originally posted by M©+square:I can't help but to notice the local catholic churches tributes lesser of Christ and more of the saints and Mary.
I may be wrong, and admit i do not have the depth of understanding why more local churches decide to tribute to Mary and the Saints.
My observations of Catholic believers carrying photos of Virgin Mary in their wallets, on cars etc. Have somehow casted this mindset.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_Catholic_churches_in_Singapore -
Ben,Originally posted by ben1xy:and Vince, was Jesus fully God when Mary was carrying him in her womb?
read the few post I made referencing
1 John 5: 19-20 (NIV) and John 17: 1-5 (NIV),
Not that the Son of God is not God, but the use of these verse is not correct, for the 'He' that were being refered to as God here, is God the Father.
Its not the statement made that is wrong, its the supporting verses used, meaning using the wrong verses.
Its like pointing to an orange while making a statement "An apple is a fruit", what had the orange got to do with it?
ok... for discussion sake...
look at John 1: 1-15 (especially 1,14,15), you could have use these verses to show the deity of Christ.
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If we are talking about conversion, then it is the work of the Holy Spirit isn't it?Originally posted by ben1xy:i have nv come across a person that converted because of debate or through theological reasoning? u might disagree but i would think that it's because reasoning appeals to u. then again this is all my own personal opinion.
Regeneration precedes faith?
I feel that the purpose of a forum or any dialogue is not to convert the other party to your faith, but to convince the other party of your stand. -
****this is just how I feel after reading this post, its not a reply to anyoneOriginally posted by ben1xy:There's where we differ icey. To me, the way to touch and convert ppl is not through intellectual debates but rather to live the Gospel (not that i am ). Relying on intellect to understand God? i dun see how that can be achieved. When debates come in, pride comes in too. Both u n me are not exempted from that. And when pride comes in, i do not see how one converts. The loser will just find more resources to fire back.
from scriptual studies comes knowledge, from Intellectual discussions comes understanding.
we may not agree on serveral things and even disagree on a lot of things, but from meaningful discussion comes understanding (at least we can understand where we are coming from).
debates will have winners/losers, a meaningful discussion will only results in winners, for both either gain some, or lose nothing.
on conversions, we can only sow the seeds of the Gospel of Salvation, its God who make it grows, to convict and to convert.
cheers
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Icey...Originally posted by Icemoon:If we are talking about conversion, then it is the work of the Holy Spirit isn't it?
Regeneration precedes faith?
I feel that the purpose of a forum or any dialogue is not to convert the other party to your faith, but to convince the other party of your stand.
I will be content just to be able to converse my stand (no need to convince anyone) -
i would think it's to reach an understandingOriginally posted by Icemoon:If we are talking about conversion, then it is the work of the Holy Spirit isn't it?
Regeneration precedes faith?
I feel that the purpose of a forum or any dialogue is not to convert the other party to your faith, but to convince the other party of your stand. -
ok, yup i get your pointOriginally posted by vince69:Ben,
read the few post I made referencing
1 John 5: 19-20 (NIV) and John 17: 1-5 (NIV),
Not that the Son of God is not God, but the use of these verse is not correct, for the 'He' that were being refered to as God here, is God the Father.
Its not the statement made that is wrong, its the supporting verses used, meaning using the wrong verses.
but Vince, my question? about whether the person MAry was carrying was fully God? or does the Protestant view about the divinity of Jesus differ from the Catholic? -
We are not ready to admit that a Great probably made a mistake and someone we revere is talking rubbish.Originally posted by vince69:Ben,
read the few post I made referencing
1 John 5: 19-20 (NIV) and John 17: 1-5 (NIV),
Not that the Son of God is not God, but the use of these verse is not correct, for the 'He' that were being refered to as God here, is God the Father.
Its not the statement made that is wrong, its the supporting verses used, meaning using the wrong verses.
Its like pointing to an orange while making a statement "An apple is a fruit", what had the orange got to do with it?
ok... for discussion sake...
look at John 1: 1-15 (especially 1,14,15), you could have use these verses to show the deity of Christ.
Let us be captive to God (and if you are a Christian, His Holy Word), not the dogma and faulty reasoning of mortals. -
my stance for this issue is something similar to yoursOriginally posted by vince69:Icey...
I will be content just to be able to converse my stand (no need to convince anyone) -
Notice I posted many questions but they were not answered or answered in bad faith.Originally posted by ben1xy:i would think it's to reach an understanding
How can I ever hope to understand?
I realize when we quote something from the web and was rebutted, we don't bother to defend what we quoted. Or that it was done very poorly, like ben is still avoiding the issue that 'he' in 1 John does not refer to Jesus Christ.
I also showed using the Greek bible that Catholics have reduce the Lord to below Mary by virtue of their [faulty] reasoning. This was not answered. -
you do realise, the answer to these questions can write a book already...hahaOriginally posted by ben1xy:ok, yup i get your point
but Vince, my question? about whether the person MAry was carrying was fully God? or does the Protestant view about the divinity of Jesus differ from the Catholic?
ok, lets do this one step at a time, and Only for discussion.
lets get some of the term right first, what is your understanding on
1) what does "Son of Man" means
2) what does "Son of God" means
3) what are the criteria that Christ have to meet or required to fulfil in order to stand in proxy of us before God the Father. -
This is not understanding and certainly not learning.Originally posted by vince69:Icey...
I will be content just to be able to converse my stand (no need to convince anyone)
Let me quote an analogy since Pastor Prince also likes to use analogy. I suppose you like it this way:
If our government only converse their stand (that they need to be high handed) without convincing us, do you think we understand and learn?
No .. we don't.
We only learn the day one of our seditious comment sparks a racial riot and we get engulfed in turmoil. -
let me phrase it this way,Originally posted by Icemoon:This is not understanding and certainly not learning.
Let me quote an analogy since Pastor Prince also likes to use analogy. I suppose you like it this way:
If our government only converse their stand (that they need to be high handed) without convincing us, do you think we understand and learn?
No .. we don't.
We only learn the day one of our seditious comment sparks a racial riot and we get engulfed in turmoil.
my part is to converse my stand based on my convictions regarding the things of God, and leave the convincing part to Him who is able to both convicts and convince, and I am very sure He can do a much better job than me. -
Firstly, icey, how do i answer something that i am not sure of? i posted something, if you disagree, it's fine by me. If i see something i can defend, i will defend. if i can't, i won't.Originally posted by Icemoon:I realize when we quote something from the web and was rebutted, we don't bother to defend what we quoted. Or that it was done very poorly, like ben is still avoiding the issue that 'he' in 1 John does not refer to Jesus Christ.
I also showed using the Greek bible that Catholics have reduce the Lord to below Mary by virtue of their [faulty] reasoning. This was not answered.
Secondly, u insist that we reduce God to below Mary? i have clarified that this isn't the case. but if u choose to insist, there is nothing i can do.