Scandals in Singapore churches
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Though they are BP .. I think their theology not strong one. From the ST article .. you can see how childish is the pastor's "written defence". Either that or the leadership trying to find excuses to "silence" an intellectual from their church. Maybe they exasperated 'cos the businessman learn theology from bible college .. so in the end they resorted to ad hominem attacks.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:no need la, you might find them walking on the street handing tracts out...
Pathetic.
I believe if they try to preach to SIS . .they are in for a rude shock.
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lmao....Originally posted by Icemoon:Though they are BP .. I think their theology not strong one. From the ST article .. you can see how childish is the pastor's "written defence". Either that or the leadership trying to find excuses to "silence" an intellectual from their church. Maybe they exasperated 'cos the businessman learn theology from bible college .. so in the end they resorted to ad hominem attacks.
Pathetic.
I believe if they try to preach to SIS . .they are in for a rude shock. 
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Wait go court and trash it out.Originally posted by vince69:don't know what to say lah...
we from the outside of the church, no head no tail, difficult to deduce anything, can only say is, both side need to cool down and then sit down and talk over it.
Invite Pastor Prince as expert witness.
but .. NCC uses NKJV! .. -
nope, KJV, NKJV, NASB, NSB, NLT, NEW Jerusalem, NIV, Good News .... etcOriginally posted by Icemoon:Wait go court and trash it out.
Invite Pastor Prince as expert witness.
but .. NCC uses NKJV! ..
there is no standard offical version... -
I have been out of touch for too long.Originally posted by vince69:nope, KJV, NKJV, NASB, NSB, NLT, NEW Jerusalem, NIV, Good News .... etc
there is no standard offical version... 
I only remember NKJV and NLT.
They never use my NRSV .. what a shame.
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They should really invite Pastor Prince to be expert witness because:
1. Prince uses so many versions during his sermons.
2. Prince can entertain the judge while giving his testimony.
3. Prince is somewhat non-aligned with the typical charismatics so you can't accuse him of taking sides.
etc. -
I wonder how the trial will go.Originally posted by Icemoon:They should really invite Pastor Prince to be expert witness because:
1. Prince uses so many versions during his sermons.
2. Prince can entertain the judge while giving his testimony.
3. Prince is somewhat non-aligned with the typical charismatics so you can't accuse him of taking sides.
etc.
Catholic theologians will be in the audience having a good laugh, and the judge will ask them to leave because they are having too much fun. -
I think they probably invite a Catholic expert witness also.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:I wonder how the trial will go.
Catholic theologians will be in the audience having a good laugh, and the judge will ask them to leave because they are having too much fun.
Then all the laughing will stop huh .. -
Factiva to the rescue!
Singapore
Barred believer sues pastors for defamation
Ben Nadarajan
607 words
28 August 2006
Straits Times
English
(c) 2006 Singapore Press Holdings Limited
A DIFFERENCE in opinion over theology has escalated into a church-goer suing his pastors for defaming him in church.
Mr Lim Seng Hoo, a member of the Calvary Pandan Bible-Presbyterian Church since 1996, claims its leaders - senior pastor Tow Siang Hwa and pastor Quek Suan Yew - have tarnished his reputation.
In March, the church's Board of Elders barred the 50-year-old businessman from all church services for six months, when the threat of a lawsuit against them looked imminent.
The dispute arose from a translation of the Bible, the King James version, which the Pandan Gardens church has used for 27 years.
Over 20 English versions of the Bible exist. Some of the more widely used ones here are the New International and New Jerusalem versions.
Mr Lim, who read theology in a local bible college, believes the King James Bible - widely thought by theologians as the most accurate - is not as perfect as his pastors claim.
He made his view known to 60 church members following church service in July last year, by handing out copies of a petition for a public debate on the issue; he also e-mailed other church members.
Stinging responses came from the pastors via e-mail, church bulletins and sermons, which he felt hurt his standing as a businessman and a devout Christian.
In his statement of claim against the pastors, he said they had repeatedly run him down in church in front of people with whom his firm may have business dealings. His company distributes metrological instruments to the region.
In their written defence, the pastors, who have hired Harry Elias Partnership to represent them, said any damage to Mr Lim's reputation had been brought about by himself and that their actions had 'no consequence on his trade reputation'.
Mr Lim, who will be represented by Mr Chia Boon Teck and Ms Jamie Seah of Khattar Wong Partnership, claims his church friends have shunned him and discriminated against his four children.
He told The Straits Times that taking up a civil suit was a 'last resort', especially since he regarded senior pastor Tow as a father figure.
In the course of the dispute, he said, the insults had grown sharper. He listed some made by the pastors, which he felt caused him 'serious injury'. In particular, he was upset at being likened to Satan and referred to as an 'evil and sinister enemy'.
Senior pastor Tow said in his written defence: 'It is the teaching of the Bible that any attack on the members of the church and the pastors would be seen as a satanic attack, as Satan is the mastermind behind all disturbances within the church.'
He added that as senior pastor and church founder, he had to shield his flock from incorrect, divisive doctrines.
Mr Lim is also asking the court to quash his suspension from church, which he alleges was aimed at stopping him from presenting the church's accounts, which he audited.
He also claims to have found 'questionable' flows of about $450,000 from the church funds to the pastors.
Pastor Quek said Mr Lim had broken his vows to the church to submit to its leaders and not raise divisive issues.
In a statement to this newspaper, church elders said he failed to attend six counselling sessions following his suspension.
The statement also said it was a 'very sad day' when a church member took to suing his own pastors: 'Such an action is against the clear teaching of Jesus Christ in God's Holy and perfect Word.' -
Cant comment on the doctrines and the theology part, but it is the manner in which they resolve the issue which bugs me
Now, if I am to treat the ST article as accurate in which both sides' accounts are reported fully, its funny that the businessman's original approach is to establish an open debate on the issue, while the church's defence is that any attack on the church members or even the pastors are Satanic atatcks.
This really mirrors some of the attitude of the people in EH, where a lot of issues and questions put forward, are attributed to 'ignorance'.
Gee -
it reminds me of the POWER OF ONE.Originally posted by laurence82:Cant comment on the doctrines and the theology part, but it is the manner in which they resolve the issue which bugs me
Now, if I am to treat the ST article as accurate in which both sides' accounts are reported fully, its funny that the businessman's original approach is to establish an open debate on the issue, while the church's defence is that any attack on the church members or even the pastors are Satanic atatcks.
This really mirrors some of the attitude of the people in EH, where a lot of issues and questions put forward, are attributed to 'ignorance'.
Gee -
hmm,... ok, assuming nothing is left out in the article as you said it, in a church context, if a member have problem with the church teaching (and in this case, is on which version of the bible to use, which IMHO is none essential to salvation), he should have first brought up to the church leadership, and not directly send fliers and emails to other members to challenge the leadership, in doing so, he is pushing the leadership into a corner fight.Originally posted by laurence82:Cant comment on the doctrines and the theology part, but it is the manner in which they resolve the issue which bugs me
Now, if I am to treat the ST article as accurate in which both sides' accounts are reported fully, its funny that the businessman's original approach is to establish an open debate on the issue, while the church's defence is that any attack on the church members or even the pastors are Satanic atatcks.
This really mirrors some of the attitude of the people in EH, where a lot of issues and questions put forward, are attributed to 'ignorance'.
Gee
On the other hand, though its justifiable for the leadership to react, the manner that its being done (in this case, also IMHO) is what we would termed, over react when they termed his action as satanic. -
that day i was doing bible study at my place. the topic of 'so do other Christians have salvation came up' the moment that question came up, 2 secs (i am not joking) later the doorbell rang ....Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:no need la, you might find them walking on the street handing tracts out...
2 ppl from Jehovah witness tried to pull us to their church!
anyway.. Jehovah witness counted as Christians? or are the still upon differently? -
You are adding words into the account.Originally posted by vince69:hmm,... ok, assuming nothing is left out in the article as you said it, in a church context, if a member have problem with the church teaching (and in this case, is on which version of the bible to use, which IMHO is none essential to salvation), he should have first brought up to the church leadership, and not directly send fliers and emails to other members to challenge the leadership, in doing so, he is pushing the leadership into a corner fight.
On the other hand, though its justifiable for the leadership to react, the manner that its being done (in this case, also IMHO) is what we would termed, over react when they termed his action as satanic.
How is petition for public debate challenging the leadership? IMHO, he must have known the futility of bringing it to the church leadership. You think everyone as friendly and accomodating as your Pastor Prince?
Ironically this kind of things happen in BP .. which does not have a strong central leadership.
PS: Presbyterians are technically governed by a council of elders. The pastor is not all powerful. -
this i definitely agree!Originally posted by Icemoon:They should really invite Pastor Prince to be expert witness because:
2. Prince can entertain the judge while giving his testimony.
etc.
once i was at Suntec, he made me laugh so much that when i went to watch a comedy later... i didn't think it was as funny as his service!
he has this charisma abt him .... haiz... if only i can speak like that -
Anyway we all know whether the KJV is perfect or not.
It is certainly not as perfect as their leadership claims.
If they stubborn hold on to their views .. it is no wonder they are afraid of a public debate and want to silence this intellectual from their church.
They know their arguments cannot hold any water if brought to light. -
he couldn't talk for nuts in school last time, according to him.Originally posted by ben1xy:this i definitely agree!
once i was at Suntec, he made me laugh so much that when i went to watch a comedy later... i didn't think it was as funny as his service!
he has this charisma abt him .... haiz... if only i can speak like that -
yes, I am putting my own words, noticed I preceed that statements with (IMHO), In My Humble Opinion?Originally posted by Icemoon:You are adding words into the account.
How is petition for public debate challenging the leadership? IMHO, he must have known the futility of bringing it to the church leadership. You think everyone as friendly and accomodating as your Pastor Prince?
Ironically this kind of things happen in BP .. which does not have a strong central leadership.
PS: Presbyterians are technically governed by a council of elders. The pastor is not all powerful.
Its still my opinion, if there is an issue with the leadership, then approach the leadership first, if cannot work then say, this is not like playing games here, if not done properly can result in a split/enemity in the church.
Futility? if don't try how to know...
This come to the opening statement in my post, assuming that there is nothing being left out... -
If the theologians truely knows the heart of God, they won't be laughing.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:I wonder how the trial will go.
Catholic theologians will be in the audience having a good laugh, and the judge will ask them to leave because they are having too much fun.
however the devil will be the one laughing, as he sees the downfall of a church and the confusions set upon its members.
a sad day indeed.
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but that particular statement (in red) is not preceded with IMHO.Originally posted by vince69:yes, I am putting my own words, noticed I preceed that statements with (IMHO), In My Humble Opinion?
Its still my opinion, if there is an issue with the leadership, then approach the leadership first, if cannot work then say, this is not like playing games here, if not done properly can result in a split/enemity in the church.
Futility? if don't try how to know...
This come to the opening statement in my post, assuming that there is nothing being left out...
This is not strictly an issue with leadership. Notice he regards the pastor as a fatherly figure?
Actually the whole thing is very funny. If he doesn't agree with their ways of things .. just leave lor.
In some ways, he is like Martin Luther (we wonder why didn't Luther approach the leadership first). If you do not split .. it means you think the church still have a chance. That's probably why a debate to poll the congregation opinion (like AGM voting? haha) can be useful. No one wants to stay on a sinking ship. -
ok, my apology, just reread mine, the IMHO before that is on pointing to something else, anyway, its my personal opinion.Originally posted by Icemoon:but that particular statement (in red) is not preceded with IMHO.
This is not strictly an issue with leadership. Notice he regards the pastor as a fatherly figure?
Actually the whole thing is very funny. If he doesn't agree with their ways of things .. just leave lor.
In some ways, he is like Martin Luther (we wonder why didn't Luther approach the leadership first). If you do not split .. it means you think the church still have a chance. That's probably why a debate to poll the congregation opinion (like AGM voting? haha) can be useful. No one wants to stay on a sinking ship.
in this case, not AGM liao, its EGM he is calling.
yes, agree with you, if not happy, especially on things like which version of the Bible to use, can always leave church and find another.
my question is, is it such a big deal on this type of issue like what version of the Bible is being used? -
I think they are counted, but Mormons not counted.Originally posted by ben1xy:that day i was doing bible study at my place. the topic of 'so do other Christians have salvation came up' the moment that question came up, 2 secs (i am not joking) later the doorbell rang ....
2 ppl from Jehovah witness tried to pull us to their church!
anyway.. Jehovah witness counted as Christians? or are the still upon differently? -
Wow....i say yes to the first line.Originally posted by vince69:If the theologians truely knows the heart of God, they won't be laughing.
however the devil will be the one laughing, as he sees the downfall of a church and the confusions set upon its members.
a sad day indeed.
Such great depth.
And indeed a sad moment which i'd dread to witness. -
I think they are counted, but Mormons not counted.Originally posted by ben1xy:that day i was doing bible study at my place. the topic of 'so do other Christians have salvation came up' the moment that question came up, 2 secs (i am not joking) later the doorbell rang ....
2 ppl from Jehovah witness tried to pull us to their church!
anyway.. Jehovah witness counted as Christians? or are the still upon differently? -
Strictly speaking, JW not counted also...Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:I think they are counted, but Mormons not counted.
for one, they deny the trinity, the deity of our Lord Jesus, and also His bodily resurrection. .... etc