"If you don't believe, you go to hell."
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logical does mean true...Originally posted by sgquitter:Actually I think Buddha's words are much more credible. Many stuff He said is very Logical too. Most importantly, consistancy is there.
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no link lei....Originally posted by stupidissmart:I put a bomb in u. If u don't conduct the operation the bomb will explode and u die
say the terrorist -
Hi, stupidissmart.
1) I do not believe, like you, that God's actions are inconsistent with His claims. I do not agree that God 'anyhow punish sinners'. But I can understand why you said that. It is simple to just read some parts of the bible and see some nasty stuff God did, and then exclaim how evil He is. I tell you now, if I pick up a Koran, or Buddhist scriptures, or even Shakespeare, and just read in parts I will get the wrong idea too. But does it make Shakespeare a literary idiot if I cannot appreciate his works? Thus, I believe you have a misconception of the Tower of Babel, God's character of justice and so on. Ironically, the reason why this thread was set up is to show how people have misconceptions of the Christian faith.
2) Killing is definitely not part of his moral boundary. It is a choice that men has the power and ability to make, but he made it outside God's moral boundary, and is what you can call 'sin'. Regarding why God would forgive murderers who repent, it is because, unlike you, the murderers truly believe (note: truly) that he has sinned and thus needs justification from his sins. God therefore would forgive those who repent. However, it is wrong to assume that a Christian can therefore commit as many sins as he wants, then say a prayer 'God forgive me' and he will be forgiven. You have misunderstood how God works. God definitely can see through what is true or pretentious repentance, and if you are truly sorry, you will be forgiven on account of faith in Christ. If one however, continues to sin deliberately after professing to believe, the bible warns, that he is really not a Christian at all.
3) Frowning will not send you to hell. A lifetime of sins will. How can a loving God enforce unfair and infinitely cruel punishments? First, I do not believe it is unfair. You have not shown how punishing sin is an unfair affair (and I don't believe you can). Second, is God is a holy God who can stand no sin, yet day after day our very existence is to go and sin against Him, shall He reward us? It is ironic when non-believers who love this life on earth without a God in their lives should find it so ridiculous if they have not the same God in the afterlife. Afterall, shouldn't you be happy that finally, the presence of God is utterly taken away from you? -
1) I do not regard putting the law in our hearts as equal to having a perfect moral sense of God's goodness. Unless you can show me how in scripture it means that? The law is to make us conscious of sin (how rotten we are), and I believe to know true goodness, one must carefully study the character of God.Originally posted by Icemoon:It is quite stale (to me at least) so allow me to lead the discussion further:
1. It is said that God put the laws in our heart (written in Romans?). So how do I reconcile this with your "Man has many definitions of 'goodness', but none of which truly meets the absolute goodness of God, by which all goodness must be measured against."?
2. Do you agree that even without God (let's just assume ..), we still have a viable secular moral and ethical system? Do you regard an agnostic who acts according to, let's say, Kant's categorical imperative, as less moral and ethical or more "lost" than the Christian?
Thank you.
2) If one believes that God is the moral giver, then without God's existence there is really no need for a moral system. In fact, I believe atheists should not have any moral system, because at best it is for pragmatic purposes, not truly moral in any sense. An atheist who lives a moral life simply lives it better than what his philosophy warrants (Ravi Zacharias). If there is no God, the direct implication is that we should be free to do whatever we want, since morality is a man-made system. An agnostic who lives according to Kant's reasoned morality, thus has no regard for God, and his 'goodness' (in his definition) with no regards to God's goodness is hardly 'moral'. -
I do not believe, like you, that God's actions are inconsistent with His claims. I do not agree that God 'anyhow punish sinners'. But I can understand why you said that. It is simple to just read some parts of the bible and see some nasty stuff God did, and then exclaim how evil He is. I tell you now, if I pick up a Koran, or Buddhist scriptures, or even Shakespeare, and just read in parts I will get the wrong idea too. But does it make Shakespeare a literary idiot if I cannot appreciate his works? Thus, I believe you have a misconception of the Tower of Babel, God's character of justice and so on. Ironically, the reason why this thread was set up is to show how people have misconceptions of the Christian faith.
If u do not believe tat god's action is inconsistent, then why don't u give examples from the bible tat prove your stand ? Lets start with "loving". God nearly wipe out the whole earth just because they r too evil, he curse mankind to always have wars just because they wanna build a tower, he bring death to everybeing just because a few individual eat a fruit, he kill innocent egytian civilian in a fail attempt to persuade the pharoah, he wipe and elimnate out midianites and many other tribes and he torture and punish jesus to forgive men when he can just forgive without killing jesus. Lets play a game. For any loving act god perform, I can name u 3 "unloving" actsKilling is definitely not part of his moral boundary. It is a choice that men has the power and ability to make, but he made it outside God's moral boundary, and is what you can call 'sin'. Regarding why God would forgive murderers who repent, it is because, unlike you, the murderers truly believe (note: truly) that he has sinned and thus needs justification from his sins. God therefore would forgive those who repent. However, it is wrong to assume that a Christian can therefore commit as many sins as he wants, then say a prayer 'God forgive me' and he will be forgiven. You have misunderstood how God works. God definitely can see through what is true or pretentious repentance, and if you are truly sorry, you will be forgiven on account of faith in Christ. If one however, continues to sin deliberately after professing to believe, the bible warns, that he is really not a Christian at all.
God gives us freewill, but allows us to make choices only within His moral boundary. You assume that God has given us even the right to do evil. Will you like such a God?
Please elaborate wat do u mean here. If I am not wrong u say tat free will only allow us to make choice within god moral boundary. However when I say tat killing and other sin exists, u say tat men has the power and ability to make the choice. Isn't tat already free will ? Wat is your stand on free will ?
And talking about sinning of christians, theoretically they can perform all the evil acts in the world and get away with it scot free. Repent or not does not correct the wrong and pain that he had caused
Frowning will not send you to hell. A lifetime of sins will. How can a loving God enforce unfair and infinitely cruel punishments? First, I do not believe it is unfair. You have not shown how punishing sin is an unfair affair (and I don't believe you can). Second, is God is a holy God who can stand no sin, yet day after day our very existence is to go and sin against Him, shall He reward us? It is ironic when non-believers who love this life on earth without a God in their lives should find it so ridiculous if they have not the same God in the afterlife. Afterall, shouldn't you be happy that finally, the presence of God is utterly taken away from you?
Then theoretically there r people who can escape hell by not living a lifetime of sinning. However it is stated as IMPOSSIBLE. Furthermore when u r borned u have sinned enough to hell. Can u dispute tat ? Frowning is an act suggested by another suppose to be christian tat claim it is deadly enough for hell. Even singaporetyrannosaur also do not dispute tis fact tat frowning is a deadly sin, as deadly as killing someone. So who is right or wrong ? As said, the diea of sinning has become so trivial and silly tat it become a laughing stock.
GTG to be continued... -
1. So what exactly is God's goodness? Or rather, what is it that Christians have about morals that non believers don't?Originally posted by SocialOutcast:1) I do not regard putting the law in our hearts as equal to having a perfect moral sense of God's goodness. Unless you can show me how in scripture it means that? The law is to make us conscious of sin (how rotten we are), and I believe to know true goodness, one must carefully study the character of God.
2) If one believes that God is the moral giver, then without God's existence there is really no need for a moral system. In fact, I believe atheists should not have any moral system, because at best it is for pragmatic purposes, not truly moral in any sense. An atheist who lives a moral life simply lives it better than what his philosophy warrants (Ravi Zacharias). If there is no God, the direct implication is that we should be free to do whatever we want, since morality is a man-made system. An agnostic who lives according to Kant's reasoned morality, thus has no regard for God, and his 'goodness' (in his definition) with no regards to God's goodness is hardly 'moral'.
2. Without God's existence, there is no need for a moral system? So, without invoking God, you are suggesting a moral-less society is the natural order of things? -
Let him say wad he wants, im so tired trying to explain to ppl and answering their questions when they dont even believe my answers. sigh!!Originally posted by sgquitter:The problem is EVEN if God is really existent, there are several points worth considering.
1. He is arrogant and unjust.
Why would he give us free will and then let us suffer in Hell JUST BECOZ we chose not to believe in him? U let me *chose* and now u let me burn for eternity when i chose the "wrong" answer (btw, its wrong in his eyes only). Very Egoistic isnt it? Love goes both ways, u cant ORDER love!
Saying that we all are sinners without regards to what good we have done is a sweeping statement. There are zillions of people who are kind-hearted done tons of good deeds but just becoz they didnt believe in Him they have to suffer in eternity - that is the ULTIMATE in arrogance and unfairness. U can't beat that.
2. He is ambiguious.
Like the above example, He says CHOSE out of ur own *freewill*, and punishes us if we chose something he dont like. He says he loves us, but look what He has done? He says he is good but he creates evil. He says he is perfect but he is jealous. He just can't decide what he is.
3. We can't do anything anyway.
Yup.
Everything is ALREADY decided by God anyway. Doesn't matter what you do, becoz He has already decided. If we should become Christians, we would. If not, its all fixed by Him anyway. So does it matter?
In fact, this can also count under the ambiguious part. Is there really freewill if everything is fixed?
So finally, even if God exists (which i certainly doubt so), I wouldnt want to submit to Him, becoz He isn't honest (point 2), he punishes as He pleases (point 1), He is not really all-goodie good guy (becoz He is a Angry and Jealous God), He plays around with life.
Would u submit to a tyrant?
With so many bad characteristics (many i did not mention), why would u wanna submit to an Entity such as the Christian God anyway? Out of fear for suffering in Eternity? (ok one more bad characteristic - He threatens...)
Bottomline: Are u the one who submits to questionable authority becoz u fear for urself?
I chose no.
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You can't even convince Mc2 ..Originally posted by davidche:Let him say wad he wants, im so tired trying to explain to ppl and answering their questions when they dont even believe my answers. sigh!! 
I suggest you study the Word of God seriously. Try to be more humble.
If you want to grow, I suggest you go read books like Systematic Theology. Even a book by R.C. Sproul will be good. -
Yeah! Hell! Hell! Hell!! Hell!!
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my english sucks and i cant use accurate words and thus my weak explaination which is why i recomend you guys to read the book.Originally posted by Icemoon:You can't even convince Mc2 ..
I suggest you study the Word of God seriously. Try to be more humble.
If you want to grow, I suggest you go read books like Systematic Theology. Even a book by R.C. Sproul will be good.
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My English also sucks .. that's why I use hanyu pinyin sometimes.Originally posted by davidche:my english sucks and i cant use accurate words and thus my weak explaination which is why i recomend you guys to read the book. -
not true.Originally posted by alvin-ncs:logical does mean true...
Logical doesn't mean true .. but not logical certainly means false. -
ROTFLOL...Originally posted by alvin-ncs:den i dont belive in u....
so u r unbelivable... Don't worry, you won't go to hell for not believing in me... See how merciful I am!
P.S. I am indeed unbelievable... unbelievably gorgeous!!
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Not many people can convince me.
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It's hard to be convinced when all they use are words. Now, where are the hard evidence?
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smlj...Originally posted by linchiling:ROTFLOL... Don't worry, you won't go to hell for not believing in me... See how merciful I am!
P.S. I am indeed unbelievable... unbelievably gorgeous!!