"If you don't believe, you go to hell."
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Originally posted by sgquitter:
If that is the way how it is, then u r right !!!! is really not worth being a christian
... u will first have to kiss my arse, and do everything i tell u to, and put me as most important in ur heart and mind, LOVE ME MOST
, worship me, belive in everything i said even though i may have contradicted myself sometimes... yada yada... 
And even after u are saved, u better watch ur step, coz if u step on my foot, or make me angry or jealous i will kill u. [b]Live forever in fear.
[/b] -
misconceptions.Originally posted by sgquitter:and if u want this operation, u will first have to kiss my arse, and do everything i tell u to, and put me as most important in ur heart and mind, LOVE ME MOST , worship me, belive in everything i said even though i may have contradicted myself sometimes... yada yada...
And even after u are saved, u better watch ur step, coz if u step on my foot, or make me angry or jealous i will kill u. Live forever in fear.
In chinese: Gou3 Qie3 Tou1 Sheng1 - u want this type of life?
"Better to die on our feet, than to live on our knees"
From the christian perspective
Accepting christ, and how you live your christian live are 2 completely different matters. The fact of the matter is that if you knowledge christ, you will go to heaven, so if u are a murderer and repent by accepting christ, you will still go to heaven. It doesn't matter if you live the holiest of lives or the shittest, the only difference between one that leads a holy life is that he will be greater rewarded. [/quote] -
So what kind of life are you living now ?Originally posted by sgquitter:and if u want this operation, u will first have to kiss my arse, and do everything i tell u to, and put me as most important in ur heart and mind, LOVE ME MOST , worship me, belive in everything i said even though i may have contradicted myself sometimes... yada yada...
And even after u are saved, u better watch ur step, coz if u step on my foot, or make me angry or jealous i will kill u. Live forever in fear.
In chinese: Gou3 Qie3 Tou1 Sheng1 - u want this type of life?
"Better to die on our feet, than to live on our knees"
Since it is so good, why not share ? -
yaya, go indulge in all ur sins and den repent to god and go heaven ok? i'm a good citizen, doing a good deed everyday but land in hell coz i dun believe in sth or someone which/who doesnt exist. tt's sounds super logical to me.Originally posted by zer0kool:misconceptions.
From the christian perspective
Accepting christ, and how you live your christian live are 2 completely different matters. The fact of the matter is that if you knowledge christ, you will go to heaven, so if u are a murderer and repent by accepting christ, you will still go to heaven. It doesn't matter if you live the holiest of lives or the ^&##test, the only difference between one that leads a holy life is that he will be greater rewarded. -
firstly u assume good deeds can save uOriginally posted by skyfoo:yaya, go indulge in all ur sins and den repent to god and go heaven ok? i'm a good citizen, doing a good deed everyday but land in hell coz i dun believe in sth or someone which/who doesnt exist. tt's sounds super logical to me.
secondly u assume that God doesnt exists
the fact is that heaven is a free gift and you dun earn heaven by works.
the fact is that a loving and just God had already sent His Son to pay the penalty for all your sins.
whoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. Whoever does not believe is condemned already because they do not believe in the name of God's only Son. (paraphrase fr John chapter 3) -
that's why christians only thinking in their own pov.Originally posted by NT2:firstly u assume good deeds can save u
secondly u assume that God doesnt exists
the fact is that heaven is a free gift and you dun earn heaven by works.
the fact is that a loving and just God had already sent His Son to pay the penalty for all your sins.
whoever believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. Whoever does not believe is condemned already because they do not believe in the name of God's only Son. (paraphrase fr John chapter 3)
firstly - we dont assume good deeds *can save us*. coz we don't look for salvation or benefits when we do good deeds. Also since there's no afterlife, whats there to save? YES, HEAVEN and AFTERLIFE are things that YOU believe in, not us.
secondly - Yes, to us God dont exist, but assume is a wrong word used. You assume/imagine god exists.
Whatever God is if he exists, it doesn't really matter to me becoz he's not a fair god. So what if he is indeed *almighty* as he claims? So what if he can decide if we go heaven or hell? No point worshipping such a god who cant earn my respect becoz many things he left us are very very questionable. I guess he juz dont like logical people. -
Heaven is a free gift. It cannot be earned nor deservedOriginally posted by sgquitter:that's why christians only thinking in their own pov.
firstly - we dont assume good deeds *can save us*. coz we don't look for salvation or benefits when we do good deeds. Also since there's no afterlife, whats there to save? YES, HEAVEN and AFTERLIFE are things that YOU believe in, not us.
secondly - Yes, to us God dont exist, but assume is a wrong word used. You assume/imagine god exists.
Whatever God is if he exists, it doesn't really matter to me becoz he's not a fair god. So what if he is indeed *almighty* as he claims? So what if he can decide if we go heaven or hell? No point worshipping such a god who cant earn my respect becoz many things he left us are very very questionable. I guess he juz dont like logical people.
Man is sinner and unable to save himself through any works
God is merciful and just. He loves us but yet He got to punish sinners.
Yeshua is God's provision for our salvation. He died, rose again from the dead to pay the price for our sins and purchase for us a place in heaven.
Only by faith can a person receives this gift of heaven. That faith is trusting in Yeshua alone for eternal life.
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This gospel has been proclaimed to you as a testimony against you. That you absolutely and with your own decision rejected it. -
yup, no choice. God made me reject it.Originally posted by NT2:This gospel has been proclaimed to you as a testimony against you. That you absolutely and with your own decision rejected it.
God decided that i should be born with a mind set to trust logic and evidence more than gut-feeling.
He has decided to keep me away from him. He *claims* to give me a choice, though he knows right from the start that I will not chose something illogical.
Nothing can happen without the approval of God. Everything is planned by Him.
So there you have it. Doesn't matter what we do.
Now u say its my *own* decision to reject Him? ok. -
Funny that you can find the logic in yourself to put blame on God for your own action and decision, and still in all conciousness declare you believe He does not exist...Originally posted by sgquitter:yup, no choice. God made me reject it.
God decided that i should be born with a mind set to trust logic and evidence more than gut-feeling.
He has decided to keep me away from him. He *claims* to give me a choice, though he knows right from the start that I will not chose something illogical.
Nothing can happen without the approval of God. Everything is planned by Him.
So there you have it. Doesn't matter what we do. 
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can't you smell the hint of sarcasm?Originally posted by vince69:Funny that you can find the logic in yourself to put blame on God for your own action and decision, and still in all conciousness declare you believe He does not exist... -
Today you shall learn the orthodox tenets of the Christian faith:Originally posted by sgquitter:yup, no choice. God made me reject it.
God decided that i should be born with a mind set to trust logic and evidence more than gut-feeling.
He has decided to keep me away from him. He *claims* to give me a choice, though he knows right from the start that I will not chose something illogical.
Nothing can happen without the approval of God. Everything is planned by Him.
So there you have it. Doesn't matter what we do.
Now u say its my *own* decision to reject Him? ok.
1. Human spread the gospel.
2. The Holy Spirit convicts.
3. Before that God predestined.
You don't get to hear this often. Nowadays people just say "if you don't believe, you go to hell".
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So now u see the ambiguity?Originally posted by vince69:Funny that you can find the logic in yourself to put blame on God for your own action and decision, and still in all conciousness declare you believe He does not exist...
Talk about proving that God exists is quite straightforward. Can't prove.
Now I use His own words and message. This is why the religion is ambigious and thus cannot be trusted. -
If I may, If you really want to be a man of science and facts, question everything, do not trust anything, yes, do not trust even science itself. on the other hand, While Science may be able to answer to the things of life in term of what happens, we should also be seeking the answer to these things in term of why it happens.Originally posted by sgquitter:So now u see the ambiguity?
Talk about proving that God exists is quite straightforward. Can't prove.
Now I use His own words and message. This is why the religion is ambigious and thus cannot be trusted.
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its now 11pm, Friday night.... Vince , signing out for the weekend...Originally posted by vince69:If I may, If you really want to be a man of science and facts, question everything, do not trust anything, yes, do not trust even science itself. on the other hand, While Science may be able to answer to the things of life in term of what happens, we should also be seeking the answer to these things in term of why it happens. -
I think there is only one problem - with your understanding of Christianity and the God of the bible, not problems lying with God. I have said, that many people hates what they think is Christianity, and what they think is God. I'm stating from what I know of Christianity, and as a Christian I believe I have the right to say this (whether you call me arrogant or not....well....) just like if I enter a Buddhist forum and screamed, 'You buddhists are idolaters and worship idols!' I will immediately be criticized of my wrong understanding of Buddhism.Originally posted by sgquitter:The problem is EVEN if God is really existent, there are several points worth considering.
1. He is arrogant and unjust.
Why would he give us free will and then let us suffer in Hell JUST BECOZ we chose not to believe in him? U let me *chose* and now u let me burn for eternity when i chose the "wrong" answer (btw, its wrong in his eyes only). Very Egoistic isnt it? Love goes both ways, u cant ORDER love!
Saying that we all are sinners without regards to what good we have done is a sweeping statement. There are zillions of people who are kind-hearted done tons of good deeds but just becoz they didnt believe in Him they have to suffer in eternity - that is the ULTIMATE in arrogance and unfairness. U can't beat that.
2. He is ambiguious.
Like the above example, He says CHOSE out of ur own *freewill*, and punishes us if we chose something he dont like. He says he loves us, but look what He has done? He says he is good but he creates evil. He says he is perfect but he is jealous. He just can't decide what he is.
3. We can't do anything anyway.
Yup.
Everything is ALREADY decided by God anyway. Doesn't matter what you do, becoz He has already decided. If we should become Christians, we would. If not, its all fixed by Him anyway. So does it matter?
In fact, this can also count under the ambiguious part. Is there really freewill if everything is fixed?
So finally, even if God exists (which i certainly doubt so), I wouldnt want to submit to Him, becoz He isn't honest (point 2), he punishes as He pleases (point 1), He is not really all-goodie good guy (becoz He is a Angry and Jealous God), He plays around with life.
Would u submit to a tyrant?
With so many bad characteristics (many i did not mention), why would u wanna submit to an Entity such as the Christian God anyway? Out of fear for suffering in Eternity? (ok one more bad characteristic - He threatens...)
Bottomline: Are u the one who submits to questionable authority becoz u fear for urself?
I chose no.
So, to answer your questions:
1) God is arrogant and unjust. Sounds ironic to me, and since when has Man judged God? Nevermind, you are using a moral presupposition to judge God, the giver of moral laws. I think you have answered the question yourself. 'Good' is only truly good in God's eyes. Man has many definitions of 'goodness', but none of which truly meets the absolute goodness of God, by which all goodness must be measured against. I can praise my good friend for being 'good' with helping me with not exposing my lies. Such a good friend! Can you disagree with my definition of 'good' now? Or is there an Absolute Goodness by which I can say whether something or someone is really 'good'? In Christianity, no one is good, only God alone. Not Mother Theresa. Not even Mohamed Gandhi, since they have sinned also. If one understands the sinfulness of sin, then they will never say he had done a single good deed, much less proudly proclaim they have done 'tons of good deeds' as you have done! And only when one realizes the effects of his sinfulness as a direct transgression of God's character, can one truly understand why in not believing in Jesus results in the wrath of God. Other than that, you will only see God with myopic eyes, as with many other accusations made.
2) The ambiguity of God. Again the lack of understanding of the character of God. God gives us freewill, but allows us to make choices only within His moral boundary. You assume that God has given us even the right to do evil. Will you like such a God? I think you will like. But not me. God is righteous. Secondly, why is God a jealous God? You understand 'jealous' only in the negative sense, as in casual talk. When the bible speaks of God as 'jealous', it is not in the negative sense. Far from it. If God is God, He must be jealous! A God who shares his glory with other things is not a true God. Glory must be His alone if He is the Creator, if not God might as well don't exist, and then Christians should worship no one.
3) We can't do anything anyway? Even calvinists believe in human responsibility, so I do not know where you are coming from. Man is responsible for his actions. Man is a free agent. God does not act with what you call a 'now'. God is not restricted by time, as you and I are. God is in the past, in the present, in the future. God is eternal. How you want to even grasp, much less defeat this concept with that argument of yours is beyond me.
4) God is not honest. I think you are the one not being honest. God punishes as he pleases. No, he punishes sinners for a good reason, and I agree with his punishment. For your information, I am, too, a sinner myself. God is not the goody good guy. You are right; He is not just that. Such a god is only a figment of your imagination. You want a god who forgives all sins, and overlooks all that, saves all the 'good' people according to your own definition, and crucify His Son Jesus for nothing. This is a god you have imagined. God is a righteous and holy God, not just a loving one. -
It is quite stale (to me at least) so allow me to lead the discussion further:Originally posted by SocialOutcast:1) God is arrogant and unjust. Sounds ironic to me, and since when has Man judged God? Nevermind, you are using a moral presupposition to judge God, the giver of moral laws. I think you have answered the question yourself. 'Good' is only truly good in God's eyes. Man has many definitions of 'goodness', but none of which truly meets the absolute goodness of God, by which all goodness must be measured against. I can praise my good friend for being 'good' with helping me with not exposing my lies. Such a good friend! Can you disagree with my definition of 'good' now? Or is there an Absolute Goodness by which I can say whether something or someone is really 'good'? In Christianity, no one is good, only God alone. Not Mother Theresa. Not even Mohamed Gandhi, since they have sinned also. If one understands the sinfulness of sin, then they will never say he had done a single good deed, much less proudly proclaim they have done 'tons of good deeds' as you have done! And only when one realizes the effects of his sinfulness as a direct transgression of God's character, can one truly understand why in not believing in Jesus results in the wrath of God. Other than that, you will only see God with myopic eyes, as with many other accusations made.
1. It is said that God put the laws in our heart (written in Romans?). So how do I reconcile this with your "Man has many definitions of 'goodness', but none of which truly meets the absolute goodness of God, by which all goodness must be measured against."?
2. Do you agree that even without God (let's just assume ..), we still have a viable secular moral and ethical system? Do you regard an agnostic who acts according to, let's say, Kant's categorical imperative, as less moral and ethical or more "lost" than the Christian?
Thank you. -
so u're telling me that all the good deeds i have done in my life cant atone the somehow imbeded in me "sins"? but i'll still go to hell while those christians who really committed sins go to heaven. oh, tt's another enlightening knowledge i've gained. thanks god. i love u. for i love controversial decisionsOriginally posted by NT2:Heaven is a free gift. It cannot be earned nor deserved
Man is sinner and unable to save himself through any works
God is merciful and just. He loves us but yet He got to punish sinners.
Yeshua is God's provision for our salvation. He died, rose again from the dead to pay the price for our sins and purchase for us a place in heaven.
Only by faith can a person receives this gift of heaven. That faith is trusting in Yeshua alone for eternal life.
***
This gospel has been proclaimed to you as a testimony against you. That you absolutely and with your own decision rejected it. -
to understand god, we've to be convinced that god exist in the first place. it's like telling us to understand the little green men from mars. so pls ans my qn in the other thread before uttering those junk of u-know-what.Originally posted by SocialOutcast:I think there is only one problem - with your understanding of Christianity and the God of the bible, not problems lying with God. I have said, that many people hates what they think is Christianity, and what they think is God. I'm stating from what I know of Christianity, and as a Christian I believe I have the right to say this (whether you call me arrogant or not....well....) just like if I enter a Buddhist forum and screamed, 'You buddhists are idolaters and worship idols!' I will immediately be criticized of my wrong understanding of Buddhism.
So, to answer your questions:
1) God is arrogant and unjust. Sounds ironic to me, and since when has Man judged God? Nevermind, you are using a moral presupposition to judge God, the giver of moral laws. I think you have answered the question yourself. 'Good' is only truly good in God's eyes. Man has many definitions of 'goodness', but none of which truly meets the absolute goodness of God, by which all goodness must be measured against. I can praise my good friend for being 'good' with helping me with not exposing my lies. Such a good friend! Can you disagree with my definition of 'good' now? Or is there an Absolute Goodness by which I can say whether something or someone is really 'good'? In Christianity, no one is good, only God alone. Not Mother Theresa. Not even Mohamed Gandhi, since they have sinned also. If one understands the sinfulness of sin, then they will never say he had done a single good deed, much less proudly proclaim they have done 'tons of good deeds' as you have done! And only when one realizes the effects of his sinfulness as a direct transgression of God's character, can one truly understand why in not believing in Jesus results in the wrath of God. Other than that, you will only see God with myopic eyes, as with many other accusations made.
2) The ambiguity of God. Again the lack of understanding of the character of God. God gives us freewill, but allows us to make choices only within His moral boundary. You assume that God has given us even the right to do evil. Will you like such a God? I think you will like. But not me. God is righteous. Secondly, why is God a jealous God? You understand 'jealous' only in the negative sense, as in casual talk. When the bible speaks of God as 'jealous', it is not in the negative sense. Far from it. If God is God, He must be jealous! A God who shares his glory with other things is not a true God. Glory must be His alone if He is the Creator, if not God might as well don't exist, and then Christians should worship no one.
3) We can't do anything anyway? Even calvinists believe in human responsibility, so I do not know where you are coming from. Man is responsible for his actions. Man is a free agent. God does not act with what you call a 'now'. God is not restricted by time, as you and I are. God is in the past, in the present, in the future. God is eternal. How you want to even grasp, much less defeat this concept with that argument of yours is beyond me.
4) God is not honest. I think you are the one not being honest. God punishes as he pleases. No, he punishes sinners for a good reason, and I agree with his punishment. For your information, I am, too, a sinner myself. God is not the goody good guy. You are right; He is not just that. Such a god is only a figment of your imagination. You want a god who forgives all sins, and overlooks all that, saves all the 'good' people according to your own definition, and crucify His Son Jesus for nothing. This is a god you have imagined. God is a righteous and holy God, not just a loving one. -
Regarding the topic, I have to mention something. We should not be very happy when someone go to hell. C'os we are all sinners before we are saved. Only Jesus Christ is sinless.Even Jesus who is sinless feels sad when some one goes to hell.
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How about if Christians show you theirs is an intellectual viable belief?Originally posted by skyfoo:to understand god, we've to be convinced that god exist in the first place. it's like telling us to understand the little green men from mars. so pls ans my qn in the other thread before uttering those junk of u-know-what. -
God is arrogant and unjust. Sounds ironic to me, and since when has Man judged God? Nevermind, you are using a moral presupposition to judge God, the giver of moral laws. I think you have answered the question yourself. 'Good' is only truly good in God's eyes. Man has many definitions of 'goodness', but none of which truly meets the absolute goodness of God, by which all goodness must be measured against. I can praise my good friend for being 'good' with helping me with not exposing my lies. Such a good friend! Can you disagree with my definition of 'good' now? Or is there an Absolute Goodness by which I can say whether something or someone is really 'good'? In Christianity, no one is good, only God alone. Not Mother Theresa. Not even Mohamed Gandhi, since they have sinned also. If one understands the sinfulness of sin, then they will never say he had done a single good deed, much less proudly proclaim they have done 'tons of good deeds' as you have done! And only when one realizes the effects of his sinfulness as a direct transgression of God's character, can one truly understand why in not believing in Jesus results in the wrath of God. Other than that, you will only see God with myopic eyes, as with many other accusations made.
Ya ya yah... in the end u can't say why god requires men to worship him and think of him every second neither can u say why god is unfair and practise double standard to christian and non-believer. U say god is "good" nothing is "good" bla bla bla but take note, they r really claims made by god himself. The only reason why u say he is not arrogant and unfair because he claims he is good, and not because of the actions he did. He anyhow puish men because they r united and want to build a tower, he nearly wipe out the whole planet of inhabitant simply because he felt they r "evil" in his eye, he eliminate the dinosaur and don't even explain why, and all the tons of tons of actions u don't even look into and just go straight into wat he claim he is. I can claim I always support christians in their discussion. My actions speak otherwise. So wat am I really ? Simply wat I claimed to be ?The ambiguity of God. Again the lack of understanding of the character of God. God gives us freewill, but allows us to make choices only within His moral boundary. You assume that God has given us even the right to do evil. Will you like such a God? I think you will like. But not me. God is righteous. Secondly, why is God a jealous God? You understand 'jealous' only in the negative sense, as in casual talk. When the bible speaks of God as 'jealous', it is not in the negative sense. Far from it. If God is God, He must be jealous! A God who shares his glory with other things is not a true God. Glory must be His alone if He is the Creator, if not God might as well don't exist, and then Christians should worship no one.
If he give us freewill and make choices within our boundary, why r there autrocities such as killing in tis world ? Killing is part of hs boundary ? If he has not given us the right to do evil, then why forgive murderers even if they r christians or if they repent etc ? He has given them the right to commit as much sins as possible as long as they repent.We can't do anything anyway? Even calvinists believe in human responsibility, so I do not know where you are coming from. Man is responsible for his actions. Man is a free agent. God does not act with what you call a 'now'. God is not restricted by time, as you and I are. God is in the past, in the present, in the future. God is eternal. How you want to even grasp, much less defeat this concept with that argument of yours is beyond me.
SO is everything predestinied or not predestinied ? If u believe in predestinied then effectively we r nothing but work of literature where each of us has no free will and just act according to the script written by god. U have to answer tis question first.God is not honest. I think you are the one not being honest. God punishes as he pleases. No, he punishes sinners for a good reason, and I agree with his punishment. For your information, I am, too, a sinner myself. God is not the goody good guy. You are right; He is not just that. Such a god is only a figment of your imagination. You want a god who forgives all sins, and overlooks all that, saves all the 'good' people according to your own definition, and crucify His Son Jesus for nothing. This is a god you have imagined. God is a righteous and holy God, not just a loving one
He punish siners for a good reason ? u mean just being born and u r deemed to have enough sin to go to hell is a good reason ? Frowning is a good reason to go to hell ? And the punishment is eternal life in hell ? Wow man, tat is good reason to u, not me and probably not many logical people. God is not goody goody good guy ? U r right. He practise double standard, kill and torture his own son, kill anyone who doesn't listen to him, intend to make everyone slaves for his own, create evil, sins and devil, nearly wipe out all living things because he just felt they r too evil, enforce harsh impossible rules and many other traits and examples of his "non goodness". Is he righteous ? How can an unfair being being righteous ? Loving ? how can a loving god enforces unfair and infinitely cruel punishments ? -
stupidissmart is so clever. the cleverest kid in town. 3 cheers for stupidissmart.
he has uncover so many things that we dunno. Will he get a nobel prize? -
hw did mr J come in e 1st place?? his parents didnt *ahem ahem* rite??
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den i dont belive in u....Originally posted by linchiling:I believe in not believing what others believe in so, I don't believe in believing what others don't believe in!!!
so u r unbelivable... -
so u belive in wat thing that exists?Originally posted by skyfoo:at least we believe in sth that exists.