"If you don't believe, you go to hell."
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I think the most misunderstood statement about the Christian faith is the phrase 'if you don't believe in Jesus, you go to hell.' Somehow a Christian can explain most of the gospel without much provocation, but once he murmurs this phrase, the other party instinctively rejects it immediately. My question is, do you reject it because it is false, or because you don't like that statement? If you had lied and a friend of you pointed you out, you react immediately in anger, not because he had said something false, but because you don't like what he said.
So I figured it is the latter. It makes Christianity sound offensive and extremely arrogant. It makes Jesus look like an evil man who say 'Believe me, or DIE!' I do not disagree with that statement in any sense. Now withhold your judgement, and let me explain. I believe the statement is true. But I don't believe it represents the Christian faith anymore than 'Christians are those who go to church every sunday'. Going to hell is not the main point of the gospel, yet it offends people the most.
Let's go back to Jesus. I know even people of other faiths and even atheists readily agree he is a good teacher, at the very least. Some even had a certain expectation of him - he preaches love, thus he must be loving, and to send humans to hell is very unloving. Hereby I urge you to consider the other side of God - His unquestionable Justice. You have heard God is Love, you have known his unconditional love. Here is one whose justice is also unquestionable.
In fact, the few verses directly after that famous John 3:16 verse goes like this: Jesus did not come to condemn anyone but to save. Listen carefully, he comes to save. Not to make bad people good, but to make dead people alive. Any objections about 'What about those good people? God send them to hell too?' is immediately refuted by Jesus. There are no good people. The only good is God alone, and all men has fallen short of God's standards. The next verse is then 'those who do not believe has already been condemned'. Christians themselves stand condemned before they believe in Jesus, just like anyone else because they too, have sinned and deserve their due punishment. Now, instead of demanding from God 'Why should we be punished?' God has instead offered a solution through His Son Jesus.
I only find it ridiculous that anyone should dismiss Christianity just because it says 'you will go to hell/be condemned', because it actually offers a solution, yet one keeps looking at his problem and refuse to accept it, and instead refuses that solution.
Can I urge those who are sceptics to consider Christianity for what it really is? Rather than see Christianity is a shallow angle? Christianity is not just about a loving God who loves everybody. It is also about a righteous God who will bring punishment to sinners. And if you see this today, do not harden your hearts, and repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand. -
Thanks for helping with the ratings.
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wtf
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I didn't expect this reply...Originally posted by Icemoon:Thanks for helping with the ratings. 
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Actually I should thank everyone .. even atheists like skyfoo and SIS.
Everyone is rallying to my call. -
Eternal Slugfest
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Originally posted by SocialOutcast:
Yo... you are quoting from bible... which is also what non-believers DON'T BELIEVE in!!! That's why we're non-believers!!! Get it?? Don't force your beliefs on us!! Wah piang.... *banging head against wall*
I think the most misunderstood statement about the Christian faith is the phrase 'if you don't believe in Jesus, you go to hell.' Somehow a Christian can explain most of the gospel without much provocation, but once he murmurs this phrase, the other party instinctively rejects it immediately. My question is, do you reject it because it is false, or because you don't like that statement? If you had lied and a friend of you pointed you out, you react immediately in anger, not because he had said something false, but because you don't like what he said.
So I figured it is the latter. It makes Christianity sound offensive and extremely arrogant. It makes Jesus look like an evil man who say 'Believe me, or DIE!' I do not disagree with that statement in any sense. Now [b]withhold your judgement, and let me explain. I believe the statement is true. But I don't believe it represents the Christian faith anymore than 'Christians are those who go to church every sunday'. Going to hell is not the main point of the gospel, yet it offends people the most.
Let's go back to Jesus. I know even people of other faiths and even atheists readily agree he is a good teacher, at the very least. Some even had a certain expectation of him - he preaches love, thus he must be loving, and to send humans to hell is very unloving. Hereby I urge you to consider the other side of God - His unquestionable Justice. You have heard God is Love, you have known his unconditional love. Here is one whose justice is also unquestionable.
In fact, the few verses directly after that famous John 3:16 verse goes like this: Jesus did not come to condemn anyone but to save. Listen carefully, he comes to save. Not to make bad people good, but to make dead people alive. Any objections about 'What about those good people? God send them to hell too?' is immediately refuted by Jesus. There are no good people. The only good is God alone, and all men has fallen short of God's standards. The next verse is then 'those who do not believe has already been condemned'. Christians themselves stand condemned before they believe in Jesus, just like anyone else because they too, have sinned and deserve their due punishment. Now, instead of demanding from God 'Why should we be punished?' God has instead offered a solution through His Son Jesus.
I only find it ridiculous that anyone should dismiss Christianity just because it says 'you will go to hell/be condemned', because it actually offers a solution, yet one keeps looking at his problem and refuse to accept it, and instead refuses that solution.
Can I urge those who are sceptics to consider Christianity for what it really is? Rather than see Christianity is a shallow angle? Christianity is not just about a loving God who loves everybody. It is also about a righteous God who will bring punishment to sinners. And if you see this today, do not harden your hearts, and repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand.[/b] -
so what do you all believe in?Originally posted by linchiling:Yo... you are quoting from bible... which is also what non-believers DON'T BELIEVE in!!! That's why we're non-believers!!! Get it?? Don't force your beliefs on us!! Wah piang.... *banging head against wall*
health and prosperity?
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I believe in not believing what others believe in so, I don't believe in believing what others don't believe in!!!Originally posted by Icemoon:so what do you all believe in?
health and prosperity? -
The problem is EVEN if God is really existent, there are several points worth considering.
1. He is arrogant and unjust.
Why would he give us free will and then let us suffer in Hell JUST BECOZ we chose not to believe in him? U let me *chose* and now u let me burn for eternity when i chose the "wrong" answer (btw, its wrong in his eyes only). Very Egoistic isnt it? Love goes both ways, u cant ORDER love!
Saying that we all are sinners without regards to what good we have done is a sweeping statement. There are zillions of people who are kind-hearted done tons of good deeds but just becoz they didnt believe in Him they have to suffer in eternity - that is the ULTIMATE in arrogance and unfairness. U can't beat that.
2. He is ambiguious.
Like the above example, He says CHOSE out of ur own *freewill*, and punishes us if we chose something he dont like. He says he loves us, but look what He has done? He says he is good but he creates evil. He says he is perfect but he is jealous. He just can't decide what he is.
3. We can't do anything anyway.
Yup.
Everything is ALREADY decided by God anyway. Doesn't matter what you do, becoz He has already decided. If we should become Christians, we would. If not, its all fixed by Him anyway. So does it matter?
In fact, this can also count under the ambiguious part. Is there really freewill if everything is fixed?
So finally, even if God exists (which i certainly doubt so), I wouldnt want to submit to Him, becoz He isn't honest (point 2), he punishes as He pleases (point 1), He is not really all-goodie good guy (becoz He is a Angry and Jealous God), He plays around with life.
Would u submit to a tyrant?
With so many bad characteristics (many i did not mention), why would u wanna submit to an Entity such as the Christian God anyway? Out of fear for suffering in Eternity? (ok one more bad characteristic - He threatens...)
Bottomline: Are u the one who submits to questionable authority becoz u fear for urself?
I chose no. -
think about it carefully... is Yahweh a tyrant? really?Originally posted by sgquitter:The problem is EVEN if God is really existent, there are several points worth considering.
1. He is arrogant and unjust.
Why would he give us free will and then let us suffer in Hell JUST BECOZ we chose not to believe in him? U let me *chose* and now u let me burn for eternity when i chose the "wrong" answer (btw, its wrong in his eyes only). Very Egoistic isnt it? Love goes both ways, u cant ORDER love!
Saying that we all are sinners without regards to what good we have done is a sweeping statement. There are zillions of people who are kind-hearted done tons of good deeds but just becoz they didnt believe in Him they have to suffer in eternity - that is the ULTIMATE in arrogance and unfairness. U can't beat that.
2. He is ambiguious.
Like the above example, He says CHOSE out of ur own *freewill*, and punishes us if we chose something he dont like. He says he loves us, but look what He has done? He says he is good but he creates evil. He says he is perfect but he is jealous. He just can't decide what he is.
3. We can't do anything anyway.
Yup.
Everything is ALREADY decided by God anyway. Doesn't matter what you do, becoz He has already decided. If we should become Christians, we would. If not, its all fixed by Him anyway. So does it matter?
In fact, this can also count under the ambiguious part. Is there really freewill if everything is fixed?
So finally, even if God exists (which i certainly doubt so), I wouldnt want to submit to Him, becoz He isn't honest (point 2), he punishes as He pleases (point 1), He is not really all-goodie good guy (becoz He is a Angry and Jealous God), He plays around with life.
Would u submit to a tyrant?
With so many bad characteristics (many i did not mention), why would u wanna submit to an Entity such as the Christian God anyway? Out of fear for suffering in Eternity? (ok one more bad characteristic - He threatens...)
Bottomline: Are u the one who submits to questionable authority becoz u fear for urself?
I chose no.
Did Yahweh ever threaten? He warns but never threatens...
Or do we submit to righteous authority because we have seen Yahweh's goodness?
The christian concept of hell as a place of eternal suffering may be a misplaced one... evidence also suggests that sinners do not burn in hell forever, Yahweh is not that cruel... I have posted that those who do not believe will cease to exist. -
My question is, do you reject it because it is false, or because you don't like that statement?
There is a 3rd option. Because it sounds like a threat. If your friend tell u to to go to a mosque for your whole life otherwise u your friends and your family will go to hell, how will u feel ? We make it in another form. Your friend ask u to do his homework for him otherwise u, your friends and your family go to hell. How do u feel ? For the weak minded, u might be scared into submission. For the more strong will, they will reject the notion immediately.John 3:16 verse goes like this: Jesus did not come to condemn anyone but to save
Jesus own words
Matthew 10
34"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw—
36a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[e]
37"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.think about it carefully... is Yahweh a tyrant? really?
U need to know the difference between warn and threathen.
Did Yahweh ever threaten? He warns but never threatens...
Warn is when u inform people of impending dangers which u r not the cause of it and u get nothing out of the people u warned
Threat is when u inform people of impending danger which u cause it and seek tat the victim followed wat u order.
Did Yahweh threathen ? YES.The christian concept of hell as a place of eternal suffering may be a misplaced one... evidence also suggests that sinners do not burn in hell forever, Yahweh is not that cruel...
A lot of christian believe non-believer suffer eternal hell as well as revelation in the bible mentioning it as well. Either wat u say is a bible contradiction or is not true. -
Actually, I would like to see the "evidence" you talked about.Originally posted by breytonhartge:The christian concept of hell as a place of eternal suffering may be a misplaced one... evidence also suggests that sinners do not burn in hell forever, Yahweh is not that cruel... I have posted that those who do not believe will cease to exist. -
lol, why punish innocent people.
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This statement is an oxymoron....Originally posted by breytonhartge:think about it carefully... is Yahweh a tyrant? really?
Did Yahweh ever threaten? He warns but never threatens...
Or do we submit to righteous authority because we have seen Yahweh's goodness?
The christian concept of hell as a place of eternal suffering may be a misplaced one... evidence also suggests that sinners do not burn in hell forever, Yahweh is not that cruel... I have posted that those who do not believe will cease to exist. -
at least we believe in sth that exists.Originally posted by Icemoon:so what do you all believe in?
health and prosperity? -
christianity is proven wrong now lets all head over to the buddhist board
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if u dun have this operation, you will die
say the doctor -
Actually I think Buddha's words are much more credible. Many stuff He said is very Logical too. Most importantly, consistancy is there.Originally posted by Cenarious:christianity is proven wrong now lets all head over to the buddhist board
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then we found out that it was the doctor who put the disease into the patient so he can earn more money from himOriginally posted by pqr:if u dun have this operation, you will die
say the doctor -
this whole thread is like all the christians just self pwned
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I put a bomb in u. If u don't conduct the operation the bomb will explode and u die
say the terrorist -
+1Originally posted by stupidissmart:I put a bomb in u. If u don't conduct the operation the bomb will explode and u die
say the terrorist -
the terrorist example got the elements of threat
1) The bad thing is gonna happen is planned and done by the terrorist
2) To prevent tis bad thing from happening, the victim have to obey his instruction
if we talk about a case of a doctor, it do not have the 2 elements -
and if u want this operation, u will first have to kiss my arse, and do everything i tell u to, and put me as most important in ur heart and mind, LOVE ME MOSTOriginally posted by pqr:if u dun have this operation, you will die
say the doctor
, worship me, belive in everything i said even though i may have contradicted myself sometimes... yada yada...
And even after u are saved, u better watch ur step, coz if u step on my foot, or make me angry or jealous i will kill u. Live forever in fear.
In chinese: Gou3 Qie3 Tou1 Sheng1 - u want this type of life?
"Better to die on our feet, than to live on our knees"