Biggest question in hell!!
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den wad u wan? rockets?Originally posted by ben1xy:The shallowness of your thoughts are disturbing. SIS and skyfoo make valid (though not always
) and good arguements. Apathy in this manner seems childish. The impact of religion whether u believe in any religion or not is pervasive in every society and culure and therefore affects everyone. To brush it off with a yawn ... it's really sad to see -
BSOriginally posted by ben1xy:let me try to my very best to recall wad he said in his confessions. He was questioning where evil came from if God made all things and because he was good al things were good. He went on to posit that there was a privition of good, and that evil was a non-being. Think abt it this way, like dark is not darkness but a lack of light. Thus Evil is not evil but a lack of goodness. u get wad i'm driving at here? i can't articulate it properly.
Hmm, let's try a philosophical approach then, let's go back to the concept of free will. in that in creating the world, God allows the world to be itself but having the independance or the freedom that was the result of the love of God? this would explain why natural disasters happen. I think i am driving somehwere towards the chaos theory though not exactly there.. but that God is in control of the world, not in minute details but more of maintaining the order of going of events. Erm... infinite possibilities through abitrary events but yet, an assurance of development. i hope i am not getting too confusing
There is like this precariousness. but there is advancement, but the precariousness causes a movement towards a controlled unknown. and this precariousness and unknown is where the evil sprouted from?
u get wad i am inching towards?
i will try to rephrase it again -
whose clone are you?Originally posted by yaddayadda:BS
BS .. orhhhh .. you asking him to go for more bible study sessions ah? -
whose clone is this?Originally posted by yaddayadda:BS -
thks ah ...Originally posted by Icemoon:whose clone are you?
BS .. orhhhh .. you asking him to go for more bible study sessions ah? -
It is better to admit we need to constantly improve ourselves than our reply to be labelled BS.Originally posted by ben1xy:thks ah ...
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sighz.. i reckon i've made some enemies hereOriginally posted by Icemoon:It is better to admit we need to constantly improve ourselves than our reply to be labelled BS. 
although i admit my post is a bit messy and incoherant -
it is ok la .. you admitted it was a first draft kind of thing.Originally posted by ben1xy:although i admit my post is a bit messy and incoherant -
but i'm too lazy to edit nowOriginally posted by Icemoon:it is ok la .. you admitted it was a first draft kind of thing.
hahaa
i will leave it the way it is -
You bet it isOriginally posted by ben1xy:sighz.. i reckon i've made some enemies here
although i admit my post is a bit messy and incoherant
hurhur
So you are proposing that there is this grey area between good and evil? -
[quote]Originally posted by laurence82:
You bet it is
hurhur
So you are proposing that there is this grey area between good and evil?
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ppl tend to apply free will to only humans. but if the idea of free will applies to even the earth, then it explains natural disasters
my other theory, not mine actually... St Augustine's theory is that Evil is not evil.
give u an analogy; u cannot put darkness in the room. U can only dim the light. He was pushing towards something where he explains evil as a lack of goodness
which means that evil wasnt created. but a deprivition of goodness
a bit cheem lah ... but the whole confessions of St Augustine is all real cheem anyway -
woot! not cheem at all. pretty cool! thx! yup! solved my problem!
Wow, didnt know you ppl were so clever!(no sacarsm)
peace ,--this works well when u post a post that has the potential of ppl mistakening it to be an offense to someone -
let me try to my very best to recall wad he said in his confessions. He was questioning where evil came from if God made all things and because he was good al things were good. He went on to posit that there was a privition of good, and that evil was a non-being. Think abt it this way, like dark is not darkness but a lack of light. Thus Evil is not evil but a lack of goodness. u get wad i'm driving at here? i can't articulate it properly.
According to the scripture, good and evil r quantities of its own, much like positive charge and negative charge. Tat is why the fruit is call "knowledge of good and evil" and not "knowledge of good". Even if u view it from a scientific angle, degree of "darkness" and "cold" has a limit becasue it is the absence of some othe quantity. However is there a limit on "evil" ?
Furthermore, in the scripture it says god create the light and dark, when dark is simply the absence of light. Wat does tis phrase means then ?Hmm, let's try a philosophical approach then, let's go back to the concept of free will. in that in creating the world, God allows the world to be itself but having the independance or the freedom that was the result of the love of God? this would explain why natural disasters happen. I think i am driving somehwere towards the chaos theory though not exactly there.. but that God is in control of the world, not in minute details but more of maintaining the order of going of events. Erm... infinite possibilities through abitrary events but yet, an assurance of development. i hope i am not getting too confusing
U mean god is not in control of the world and or he allow suffering and pains to exist and multiply thus making him a god tat is devoid of benevolence than wat he claims ? If there is no god, it make sense because no one had the power to control the forces of nature. If there is a prefect god, then it is senseless because he is either not benevolent, too powerless or not present or care anymore -
hmm, SIS, have u tried reading up on the concept of free will? in that God allows individualism and choices in order that we might live life to the fullest? but it was in this freedom of choice that sprouted the root on evil. but it was a good point that u brought upOriginally posted by stupidissmart:U mean god is not in control of the world and or he allow suffering and pains to exist and multiply thus making him a god tat is devoid of benevolence than wat he claims ? If there is no god, it make sense because no one had the power to control the forces of nature. If there is a prefect god, then it is senseless because he is either not benevolent, too powerless or not present or care anymore
'If there is no god, it make sense because no one had the power to control the forces of nature. If there is a prefect god, then it is senseless because he is either not benevolent, too powerless or not present or care anymore'
this were the exact things that St Augustine was struggling to come to terms with.
His main arguments were that: God loved the world so much that he allowed the physical world to be itself.
another of his argument was that God judged it better to bring good out of evil, than to suffer no evil to exist (book 7 of the confessions)
my apologies that i cannot explain this concept clearly, as i do not pretend to be on that same level as St Augustine. But i do think that u can glimpse wad he is trying to say. I'm not saying he is right or wrong. am just offering another alternative to explain -
oh SIS ah, pls bear in mind that i am Catholic and thus do not subscribe to the same scriptural views as my Protestant brothers.Originally posted by stupidissmart:According to the scripture, good and evil r quantities of its own, much like positive charge and negative charge. Tat is why the fruit is call "knowledge of good and evil" and not "knowledge of good". Even if u view it from a scientific angle, degree of "darkness" and "cold" has a limit becasue it is the absence of some othe quantity. However is there a limit on "evil" ?
Furthermore, in the scripture it says god create the light and dark, when dark is simply the absence of light. Wat does tis phrase means then ?
Catholics treat scripture slightly differently as compared to Protestant. Catholics also tend to view Genesis as symbolic and that's why we have no problems with the theory of evolution -
hmm, SIS, have u tried reading up on the concept of free will? in that God allows individualism and choices in order that we might live life to the fullest? but it was in this freedom of choice that sprouted the root on evil. but it was a good point that u brought up
First and foremost, free will and most decision do not deal with sin
I can choose to play a video game rather than watch movie, I will rather take a bus than the train etc. Free will does not necssary equate to sinning and saying tat evil is created because we have free will is not correct. It is only in some cases where free will bring sinful nature (such as killing someone, or scold someone etc) but than if we do not have the capability of doing such actions, things r actually better.
And since free will is endorsed by god, why does he punish us for practising the free will ? On one hand he is supposed to encourage us to have free will, which inevitably and 100% led us to sinning, then he punish us for practising the free will. Is tat giving free will or tat a trap ? It is stated by jesus itself tat he rather cut off his limps and gorge out his eyes in order to get eternal life. Why doesn't he do tis to human ? I, perhaps most people, rather have a lesser degree of free will such tat we do not have the capability of sinning in order to have eternal life than eternal damnation.His main arguments were that: God loved the world so much that he allowed the physical world to be itself.
Then why does he interfere with the physical world by coming over and demanding people to his servants ? If he want the world to be itself, he shoudn't interfere like tisanother of his argument was that God judged it better to bring good out of evil, than to suffer no evil to exist (book 7 of the confessions)
Suffer no evil to exists ? Wat is the suffering of no evil ? I thought suffering is derived from evil
oh SIS ah, pls bear in mind that i am Catholic and thus do not subscribe to the same scriptural views as my Protestant brothers.Catholics treat scripture slightly differently as compared to Protestant. Catholics also tend to view Genesis as symbolic and that's why we have no problems with the theory of evolution
Do u believe in genesis then ? If it is symbolic then wat is your stand on adam eating the fruit and caused sinning among people ? Is it as some would described, selective believing ? -
i see where u r coming from. but do u see where i am coming from? Free will is given so that we may live life to the fullest. However, evil sprouted from the gift of free Will. oh Sis, i am not God and i cannot answer your question. God did give us a route away from eternal damnation, the price was the death of his Son on the cross for us. by now u should know the Christian viewpoint right. so to put it concisely: free will to live life to the fullest=> however there's the capability of sinning => therefore the need of redemption through the cross.Originally posted by stupidissmart:First and foremost, free will and most decision do not deal with sin I can choose to play a video game rather than watch movie, I will rather take a bus than the train etc. Free will does not necssary equate to sinning and saying tat evil is created because we have free will is not correct. It is only in some cases where free will bring sinful nature (such as killing someone, or scold someone etc) but than if we do not have the capability of doing such actions, things r actually better.
And since free will is endorsed by god, why does he punish us for practising the free will ? On one hand he is supposed to encourage us to have free will, which inevitably and 100% led us to sinning, then he punish us for practising the free will. Is tat giving free will or tat a trap ? It is stated by jesus itself tat he rather cut off his limps and gorge out his eyes in order to get eternal life. Why doesn't he do tis to human ? I, perhaps most people, rather have a lesser degree of free will such tat we do not have the capability of sinning in order to have eternal life than eternal damnation.
I would like to question ur concept on a lesser degree of Free Will. Either u have free will or you don't. it's a dichotomy.
Can u elaborate on this point. i dun quite get itOriginally posted by stupidissmart:Then why does he interfere with the physical world by coming over and demanding people to his servants ? If he want the world to be itself, he shoudn't interfere like tis
did u read my post on evil is a deprivition of goodness?Originally posted by stupidissmart:Suffer no evil to exists ? Wat is the suffering of no evil ? I thought suffering is derived from evil
Catholics subscribes to 3 pillars; scripture, traditions and mageisterium. Perharps we can continue this aspect of discussion in another thread?Originally posted by stupidissmart:Do u believe in genesis then ? If it is symbolic then wat is your stand on adam eating the fruit and caused sinning among people ? Is it as some would described, selective believing ?
Lastly SIS, i am not trying to convert u. i am just stating my case as a Catholic. -
see where u r coming from. but do u see where i am coming from? Free will is given so that we may live life to the fullest. However, evil sprouted from the gift of free Will. oh Sis, i am not God and i cannot answer your question. God did give us a route away from eternal damnation, the price was the death of his Son on the cross for us. by now u should know the Christian viewpoint right. so to put it concisely: free will to live life to the fullest=> however there's the capability of sinning => therefore the need of redemption through the cross.
My belief is free will is not a dichotomy
I would like to question ur concept on a lesser degree of Free Will. Either u have free will or you don't. it's a dichotomy. Restricted free will where everything can be the same, much like u and me and the difference is tat the thought of sinning never cross his mind. In a way it is still free will but with lesser options available The option of sinning is simply not given. U still live life to the fullest and in tis case earth has become something like heaven. If u got any complaints I can say none of them is worse than eternal hell. Do u agree with tat ?
And about your sinning and "redemption of the cross", it doesn't work because evil and sin is still plentiful now. Your propose solution does not alter the occurence of sin but only the view of sin, which simply can be transmitted to everyone instead of some people.Can u elaborate on this point. i dun quite get it
If god love the world to be in its nature state or "itself be itself", he wouldn't have to make jesus or moses come down and alter humanity. He wouldn't send a big flood and kill almost every single being neither will he curse men to always have conflicts among themselves. He has shown to always "act" and not let the world "itself be itself". Strangely he did not stop typhoon, diesease or earthquake tat kill thousands if not million of people. Then u claim he want the world to "be itself". Isn't tat contradicting ?did u read my post on evil is a deprivition of goodness?
Did u read my reply on it ?Catholics subscribes to 3 pillars; scripture, traditions and mageisterium. Perharps we can continue this aspect of discussion in another thread?
Just a yes or no question. U do not believe the bible 100%. Some portion r better left alone or treat it as though it is just a fairy tale for interest.
Lastly SIS, i am not trying to convert u. i am just stating my case as a Catholic. -
since u have agreed to disagree with everything. i will not carry on. coz it's really pointless.
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but i have to answer his part. this is the bare minimum i can do as a CatholicOriginally posted by stupidissmart:Just a yes or no question. U do not believe the bible 100%. Some portion r better left alone or treat it as though it is just a fairy tale for interest.
All scripture is profitable. As for Genesis, i take it as symbolic.
and also, pls do not compare the bible to fairy tales. it's really unbecoming. Religious harmony and respect is an important tenet of society