i aologise if this tread annoys some of u indirectly.
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Which I must also add, that when I posed that question, its for Christians to search within themselves. Whatever answers they wish to tell themselves or others, its within their conscience.Originally posted by ObiterDicta:Right, and that's a somewhat 'subjective' test in many regards.
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this is very Jewish in thinking.Originally posted by ObiterDicta:Right. One can honestly try and still fail, and that can honestly and realistically be attributed to human nature. The key, at least as far as Christians are concerned, is to keep trying via repentance.
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Your humbleness and good attitude put many Protestants to shame.Originally posted by ObiterDicta:Here's my simple-minded answer:
Because He is God. He is the uncaused First Cause. Creatures asking such questions would be meaningless, and would analogously be like Hamlet asking Shakepeare why his character was written out to be thus.
Anyway, I'm not sufficiently equipped for this debate. However, I'd like to say that your postings are very good reads and I'd welcome them warmly any time.
obiterdicta
Someone even said the logic is not in SIS. -
Really? I didn't know that.Originally posted by Icemoon:this is very Jewish in thinking.
Thanks for telling me
obiterdicta -
without the faith in Christ part I mean ..Originally posted by ObiterDicta:Really? I didn't know that.
Thanks for telling me
obiterdicta
The OT makes it very clear with the examples of David and the citizens in Nineveh and probably many more.
The OT never says David was forgiven because of Christ. Instead David and the Ninevian were forgiven because they repented! -
Haha, nothing to do with humility. I also used to be an atheist and asked many of the same questions and made many of the same arguments, although only to myself and not challenging any Christians.Originally posted by Icemoon:Your humbleness and good attitude put many Protestants to shame.
Someone even said the logic is not in SIS.
I still ask some of those questions, just that now with the gift of faith, the intellect has been enlightened somewhat. Again, it's the GIFT of faith. Some of us are ready to receive it, some not. Just have to pray.
regards,
obiterdicta -
this is very interesting .. first time I hear Christian saying "gift of faith" .. I thought faith is precursor to the gift of tongues, prophecy etc.?Originally posted by ObiterDicta:Haha, nothing to do with humility. I also used to be an atheist and asked many of the same questions and made many of the same arguments, although only to myself and not challenging any Christians.
I still ask some of those questions, just that now with the gift of faith, the intellect has been enlightened somewhat. Again, it's the GIFT of faith. Some of us are ready to receive it, some not. Just have to pray.
regards,
obiterdicta
didn't know faith is a gift also .. -
Wow, there has been a lot of interaction since I last checked! I wanted to say some stuff but I guess much of it has been made quite clear by others, I shall not try to add anything for risk of complicating simple matters.
Much of apologetics is after all, following along with simple matters that have become complex by the abuse of human reason. But still I feel I need to answer one question.As an omnipotent god, he can simply made men the type tat volition was not violated, but willingly made to that nature. copied from your final objective of men) No matter wat difference u stated, given the power of omnipotent, he can make men the type of person he desire. Why doesn't he just do it but instead make a whole big setup for tis game ?
This is a common question, and I can see two possible solutions to this that pertain to human reason.
The first solution comes form the notion that omnipotence means the infinite ability to do anything, but it does not mean the ability to do things that are logically nonsensical.
The question of if God can end up doing something He cannot do, since He can do anything might not so much of a proof that He is not omnipotent then us muddled humans misunderstanding what being omnipotent really means. It's like asking what is the smell of a square or the colour of sound, which is logically inconsisten to begin with.
Of course, to ask such a question goes beyond the boundaries of human logic... and even if there was such a thing (which I do not think so), it's something the human reason will be totally unable to answer or find out through logical request. It's a little questioning first principles, one realizes they get nowhere.
Which leads in to my second solution. Could God have created creatures with complete free will to choose or reject Him but yet it is an impossibility for them to reject Him (since He is omnipotent)? But one realizes that for it be an impossibility for them to reject Him actually removes the very nature of free will itself, so such a postulate would be a conflict of reason.
So even if it was possible, there is nothing to say that God has not done it in other creations. And even if he has, it is impossible to realize how its actually done using human logic, because we are asking yet again either a question that is total nonsense or totally beyond our ability to comprehend.
But I suspect a trap coming up, if indeed the world was in such a way, one would immediately point out that we had no free will since there was never a possibility to rejecting Him. Once again I suspect the confusion comes not from there being no omnipotent God, but because we are simply trying to overcome the infinite truth with finite reason, sheer confusion is the result.
G.K Chesterton once said something about the poet and the scientist, the poet sticks his head into the clouds and marvels in what he sees but the scientists tries to fit all of the clouds into his head. The poet is content to float on the infinite seas while the scientist tries to sail it with his reason. -
i believe that the main point of this thread is driven across already and it has been blown out of proportion.
As such, i believe the threadstarter just wants to share his views and not have it blown out of place.
Hence i'm closing this discussion.