i aologise if this tread annoys some of u indirectly.
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i feel the same way too...sumtimes it makes me dun feel like goin to church
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You are right that we should keep reminding ourselves of it not to fall back into sin.Originally posted by boredandsleepy:what i meant by not that often means that if they really do take God's teachings into considerations, they will keep reminding themselves of it and not to do comit that mistake over and over again. this takes time for some but seriously if u are really into it, u won't stumble and fall so many times repeating ur mistakes.
But how much is 'so many times' to you?
10 times? 20? 50? 100? 1000 times?
How many attempts will you give your child if he/she has struggles over a particular sin?
Do we say that a christian has failed if he has not managed to change after trying say eg 100 times? What if he managed to change on the 101st attempt?
Absoulutely agreed on that actions speaks louder than words.
And now this is what i meant by having preserverence... fighting with ur own sins. take the example u gave : jealousy.... if u really have preserverence and really wants to follow God's way, u would have reminded urself that having such thoughts is bad and will eventually change urself.
u dun go around telling ppl u're a christain and therefore u have changed ur jealousy charecteristics whereby u still have thoughts about it. actions speak louder than words u know. if u really are a devoted christain then prove it by actions and not just by words.
But I'm not sure if we can ever really say that for eg jeolousy will never ever enter into the thoughts of that person again.
I'm sure that as time progresses that trait will be less evident but I don't think we can say that we cannot declare ourselves as a christian unless we have complete victory something and that thing will never happen again.
If that was the case, not many of us can ever live up to that billing.
Victory over sin will always be a ongoing fight.
The day when we think that we have complete victory over it is the day when the devil will be very happy. -
Hey im a christian too and i agree with what the threadstarter has said
However i can only tell u that among the christians,there are the bad egss and the better ones
that simple...
i hope that u can understand from the above sentence alone
u have to know..altho church is a place for religious purpose,ppl might not go for the sake of god but for 'warming' up the seats
well thats already wrong in the start
one shld go to that holy place with the intention of worshipping and asking for forgiveness
another thing...a pastor might b a pastor but his doctrine might lead the church into the wrong path...
really dun b surprise...
if u wanan udnerstand more,go to the more "righteous' chruchs and u will find the answers in the bible
god has stated that altho there are many who come to him,how many will stay through with him?
thats for u t o ponder
the true love of god from his ppl will b tested one day.. -
Hey ur right in the sense that a christian might fail 10 tiems,100times,1000timesOriginally posted by Mystix:Absoulutely agreed on that actions speaks louder than words.
But I'm not sure if we can ever really say that for eg jeolousy will never ever enter into the thoughts of that person again.
I'm sure that as time progresses that trait will be less evident but I don't think we can say that we cannot declare ourselves as a christian unless we have complete victory something and that thing will never happen again.
If that was the case, not many of us can ever live up to that billing.
Victory over sin will always be a ongoing fight.
The day when we think that we have complete victory over it is the day when the devil will be very happy.
there actualyl is no end to the failure until we're in heaven
however,i muz say that the upteen failures by a person is only deem worthy and justify if he/she have given his best to fight sin
however,if he lays back and scucumb to sin willingly without fighting it....
then that person is juz trying to get cheap redemtion -
This is quite ironic. I believe the thread starter will probably make a better Christian than a lot of us...if he becomes one, that is. I think he has identified a very real problem with us, but believe me, a lot of us know about it already. The pastors know this, Christians themselves know this. I guess it is up to us if we want to change or not, and for God to change us. Having said that, I still believe this few incidents should not hinder your perception of Christianity. To more objectively view Christianity as it is, why not read the bible and study the words of Jesus, rather than focus too much on the inconsistent living of some Christians to the faith they claim they believe in?
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And to answer your question, no it doesn't annoy us. Rather, thank you for telling us this.
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you have a impotant point. but let me tell you this. the so called believers dont define Christianity. God defines it.
lets say you see this old and poor man with rugged clothes wearing a branded 18k gold watch with all the mp3 functions and has a 100 years garuntee.....it will lower you standard of thought for the watch but the watch doent change its value. its still as good as gold. -
Wow!!!
OK. -
tamade .. you copied Dr. Stephen Tong.Originally posted by Mystix:I believe that in the pursuit of knowledge, there's only 2 things that really matters, to know God and to know what is man.
It really is the key to understanding the problems of the world we have today.
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If I may so state my own point of view on the serial killer question, I do believe that the problems stem from our own viewing and judgement of the deeds of man, as opposed to viewing them from the way God might see it.
Of course in no way I am saying God sees our sins in such a way, but I might be tempted to think that as much as we think there is a big difference between a minor sin like telling a small lie and going around killing people, actually no such difference in the eternal sense exists.
Yes, killing people is a more serious sin because it is indicative of a more fallen and corrupted condition then a person who lies now and then, but the (Christian) concept of salvation from corruption is not interested in the severity of the corruption, but that the corruption in any form is redeemed. The severity of the corruption in a sense, is irrelevant.
It only seems unfair to us because we fail to see how serious our own minor sin is in the eyes of GodÂ… and ultimately all sin is really against God. In short, all fall equally short of God in the sense that we are always infinitely short of perfection. In that respect you and the serial killer stand on the same ground.
Sometimes we mistake our feelings for justice, it may feel unfair that the criminal that truly repents on his deathbed be forgiven and not the person who has lived a life of minor sinsÂ… but I suspect that we have a flawed concept of justice. If we really wanted God to practice the justice He without mercy or compassion and by the bookÂ… all of us deserve to die, and die totally.
So the question remains, what exactly separates the serial killer from us? I don't think there is any reasonable separation in the eyes of God except that we are all sinners and require saving.
The supposed 'unfairness' is a human conceptÂ… and if we think about itÂ… really unfair to God. He extended a Grace that He could keep by all means and paid for it by such bloody meansÂ… and now we have us sinful humans demanding He dispense this grace in accordance to this sin and that in this way or another? HmmÂ…
No I don't think the person who accepts God on deathbed lies to himself, and this is not because he has managed to earn any favour but simply because we have a God that is willing to hear even the cries of a person who has no intention but self-preservation to turn to Him. In fact in many cases we realize we don't turn to God with pure or selfless motives at all, but He chooses not to turn us away.
Really I suspect it's all about what God chooses to do, and very little of what we have to say about it. But I think it's alright to find the concept of salvation and redemption difficult at times, we'd expect to find some difficulty in understanding it if it was of Divine and not human creation and standards. -
tamade .. T-Rex is another one .. never appear when we need him most at the end of the month.
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He made a good point and I agree with it, what's the problem?Originally posted by Icemoon:tamade .. you copied Dr. Stephen Tong. 
We quote what jesus said all the time, does that make His Word any lesser? -
Of course, and thats the point I'm trying to make.Originally posted by olala:Hey ur right in the sense that a christian might fail 10 tiems,100times,1000times
there actualyl is no end to the failure until we're in heaven
however,i muz say that the upteen failures by a person is only deem worthy and justify if he/she have given his best to fight sin
however,if he lays back and scucumb to sin willingly without fighting it....
then that person is juz trying to get cheap redemtion -
But you did not quote Dr Tong or Augustine? ..Originally posted by Mystix:He made a good point and I agree with it, what's the problem?
We quote what jesus said all the time, does that make His Word any lesser? -
I'm amused at the lengths you go into pursuing this.Originally posted by Icemoon:But you did not quote Dr Tong or Augustine? ..
My mum taught me having good manners is a good virtue and I agree with her.
So shall I always quote my mum whenever I speak to others and make a statement of saying 'I believe in having good manners' ?
This is just a general statement, not some special 'revelation' that only 'belongs' to someone just because he happens to say it in public.
Do u really think that others wouldn't have reached that consensus if he had never said that? Is it such a 'profound' mystery that a average layman reading their Bible would never have thought of if no one has publicly mention it?
How sure r u that I don't think that way myself?
Should I copyright my own statements from now because you know someone might just say the same things I've said in future posts?
Besides, I think u can go easy on the swearing. The threadstarter has already seen enough negative examples as it is.
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Serial killer getting off the same treatment as a person conducting good deeds all his life. Then wat is the moltivation for doing good deeds and punishment for performing deadly sins. The people who continuously seek to do good deeds try so hard and get so far. In the end it doesn't even matter. Why waste the effort ? No wonder the threadstarter felt that christians r performing badly. Because it doesn't matter.
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boredandsleepy...
i'm sorry that u had such encounters...first things first...i've seen people walk out of mosques and temples...the next moment they are talking about beating a guy..the next moment they are cursing and swearing..and some even pray for "bon voyage" for the sins that they are going to commit later on..and l'm a christian myself..i've seen internal conflicts in the church..i've seen church people fight each other before..i've seen so many things..
so many bad and sinful things..but again..i muz say that i've seen people who are like angels..who cares..worship..follow God's word...word by word...i've seen people who know each and every word of the bible..
all these people make up the whole christian community..
the truth is..everyone needs guidance..different people..different way of guidance...
and i remember i had this same question as u too..someone gave mi the answer... "Every man is responsible for his own actions"
i believed him and i believed God..
put it this way..if God could control u and forcefully turn u into an angel..would u still believe that it's a good religion..?i think u would see the Christians nowadays as possessed people..
and for that serial killer..all sins are sins..u're either on the black side..or the white side..a sin is a sin...u need to repent deeply for every single one of them even if it's juz a minor frown u made to ur parents...to God..it weights juz as much as a serial killer..i think God doesn't decide which level of hell u will go to when He thinks u're not fit for heaven..he will juz send u down..so..it juz DOWN or UP...~
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Hey.. pls explain this, some christians told me i will go to hell if i dont believe in god.
Oh ya.. they also mentioned that if u believe in other religion u go to hell too.
So hell is a popular place for non believers of god?
A person who does not do evil and does good deeds will also go to hell because he dont believe in god?
Everyman sins. thats human nature, we are not god. but do one have to believe in god in order not to go hell? or is it just some people who put it this way? after all, the bible is written by man themselves, rules are also made by man. -
I am a free thinker here.
hope no one mind if i make a two cents worth of contribution..
I will like to said that is not the religions that matters.
Is ur everyday conduct and behaviour that counts.
Chistian way like to said that if u don't believe in jesus..
u can't go heaven..
but i will like to ask..
Back in AD 200.
the ppl in CHINA don't know about jesus.
And one young boy who is innocent but was kill in war time.
Will he go to heaven?
or go HeLL??
Or a person at that time "believe" in jesus..
BUt still do lot of WRONG things.
so he go to heaven and find st peter..
or go hell??
I will said.. the young boy will not find HELL..If there is HELL. -
Good manners is a good virtue is a truism and I'm sure it didn't come from your mum.Originally posted by Mystix:I'm amused at the lengths you go into pursuing this.
My mum taught me having good manners is a good virtue and I agree with her.
So shall I always quote my mum whenever I speak to others and make a statement of saying 'I believe in having good manners' ?
This is just a general statement, not some special 'revelation' that only 'belongs' to someone just because he happens to say it in public.
Do u really think that others wouldn't have reached that consensus if he had never said that? Is it such a 'profound' mystery that a average layman reading their Bible would never have thought of if no one has publicly mention it?
How sure r u that I don't think that way myself?
Should I copyright my own statements from now because you know someone might just say the same things I've said in future posts?
Besides, I think u can go easy on the swearing. The threadstarter has already seen enough negative examples as it is.
Actually it is a profound mystery because Augustine die die believe those are the only two things.
How many years have you read the bible? Tell me honestly, before last sunday, have you thought of it? -
you know what is "store small and become big" in chinese?Originally posted by spycampers:I am a free thinker here.
hope no one mind if i make a two cents worth of contribution..
Two cents may not be worth a lot .. but think of it as earning interest which will be compounded if your reply is good. -
I am also a free thinker. I think got points system wan lor. Like if you do some bad things and dunno there's Jesus and god and all, less points will be deducted. But if you know about Jesus and all and you still sin, then more points deducted lor. Something like that lor.Originally posted by spycampers:I am a free thinker here.
hope no one mind if i make a two cents worth of contribution..
I will like to said that is not the religions that matters.
Is ur everyday conduct and behaviour that counts.
Chistian way like to said that if u don't believe in jesus..
u can't go heaven..
but i will like to ask..
Back in AD 200.
the ppl in CHINA don't know about jesus.
And one young boy who is innocent but was kill in war time.
Will he go to heaven?
or go HeLL??
Or a person at that time "believe" in jesus..
BUt still do lot of WRONG things.
so he go to heaven and find st peter..
or go hell??
I will said.. the young boy will not find HELL..If there is HELL. -
Don't you feel you are a overly too sensitive person? Are polite 100% of the time? Sometime you may be too occupied... Are you human... Are Christians human too? Be more understanding... In any religions there are bad people too. Alot of ganster pray for buddha too are they good people? Alot of muslim pray for Allah did they stop bombing the civilians? We are all human who make mistakes. Unless you are telling me the religion actually teaches everyone to kill people then maybe its wrong I think it has nothing to do with the religion. It is your perception. Devoted Christians makes mistake too. If you think Christians are perfect church is perfect. Sorry to broke your dream. It is impossible to happen.Originally posted by boredandsleepy:Since i was in secondary sch i have always thought that christian, catholics etc... is a very holy religion with good teachings and good followers, but in the recent yrs i've noticed this changed alot.
take the pastor cheating on church funds for example, detroying the faith and trust of his fellow church mates by using their money for the chruch for himself.
and then comes the ***Y ******T teeagers being rude in public and misbehaving themselves in public by acting so rowdy. and also spreading rumours that if u wana see chio bus u have to come here. it really defeats the purpose fo attending the church totally.
well, those above are just on the general where most ppl alrdy knows. For myself, my wife and i have alrdy encountered many incidents that makes me think otherwise of this religion.
1) My wife's collegue who has never initiated a conversation to tohers before suddenly tries to make friends with my wife, talking nonstop and being very close to her. And also trying to solve most of her work problems for her even though its nt her department. After 1 week, pop comes the main motive. She actually wants my wife to go join her in her church, well i wasnt the kind who says no to sunday morning churches so i told her to go ahead.
After 2 sessions to her church, my wife finds that she actually don't really belong there cos she feels uneasy in the church. My wife then told her collegue the truth and she stopped going to that church. All of a sudden, her collegue stopped talking to her, and treats her in a hostile manner and even blocked her from the MSN. Bad impression built up here.
2) when i was in the retail line in a particular VCD shop, on fateful sunday afternoon, there was this grp of ladies around their early 30s came into the shop, while browsing the VCDs they were chatting quite loudly to each other talking about the morning's bible studies thingy. so i could easily tell that they were from the same church. i noticed that they tend to talk so loud that even the tv volume of the shop was quite loud every1 could still hear their voices. Gives me the impression that they are trying to promote their church. whats worse is when i tried to serve them by asking "May i help u" politely, they didn't even bother replying to me. Even if its a no thank you its some form of courtesy rite? But no, they simply continued their conversation loudly within themselves. When they left the shop, all the vcds were messed up, they just take up the vcd, look, not interested, andhow place them making the place look messy and an eyesore.
3) Neighbour, whole family are duno christians or catholics cant really differentiate. they have a picture of Mary at their front door. Seen them many times while taking lift down stairs. A few incidents when my wife and i were coming back home, we always see him at the lift waiting for the lift too. but that neighbour will always go in the lift and faster press door close making both of us wait for another lift. Well, i can tell u with very sure confirmation he can see us when he's going in the lift. He simply wont wait for us. Even siometimes when going down, he sees us locking our door and about to walk towards the lift, he will not wait too. its not as if waiting a few secs will cause him to lose millions of dollars rite.
these incidents actually leave me pondering what are the churches in singapore really teaching the believers now. Is it to be more self centered and only their religion is the one and only religion that is real and the rest of the religions are crap? To be arrogant and snobbish to be a christain/catholic?
To look down on other ppl just because they dont share ur same believes?
Its really annoying to know that these ppl are like that. I'm not saying that all church goers are like this. In fact i also know alot of good christains/catholics. But those ppl mentioned above are simply blacksheep. tarnishing the religion instead of bringing it proud.
and like i said i apologise here if my tread has somehow offended u indirectly, but i'm just stating some of my thouhts.
Furthermore if you are a Christian, isn't church is about you and God? Why so much on the people around? -
Christians: God did not give us so much free time to argue among ourselves - use that time to help the needy in Cambodia and recruit more 'lost sheep'.
Non-Christians: You should know better than to argue with Christians on God - hence the term 'faith'