i aologise if this tread annoys some of u indirectly.
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Since i was in secondary sch i have always thought that christian, catholics etc... is a very holy religion with good teachings and good followers, but in the recent yrs i've noticed this changed alot.
take the pastor cheating on church funds for example, detroying the faith and trust of his fellow church mates by using their money for the chruch for himself.
and then comes the ***Y ******T teeagers being rude in public and misbehaving themselves in public by acting so rowdy. and also spreading rumours that if u wana see chio bus u have to come here. it really defeats the purpose fo attending the church totally.
well, those above are just on the general where most ppl alrdy knows. For myself, my wife and i have alrdy encountered many incidents that makes me think otherwise of this religion.
1) My wife's collegue who has never initiated a conversation to tohers before suddenly tries to make friends with my wife, talking nonstop and being very close to her. And also trying to solve most of her work problems for her even though its nt her department. After 1 week, pop comes the main motive. She actually wants my wife to go join her in her church, well i wasnt the kind who says no to sunday morning churches so i told her to go ahead.
After 2 sessions to her church, my wife finds that she actually don't really belong there cos she feels uneasy in the church. My wife then told her collegue the truth and she stopped going to that church. All of a sudden, her collegue stopped talking to her, and treats her in a hostile manner and even blocked her from the MSN. Bad impression built up here.
2) when i was in the retail line in a particular VCD shop, on fateful sunday afternoon, there was this grp of ladies around their early 30s came into the shop, while browsing the VCDs they were chatting quite loudly to each other talking about the morning's bible studies thingy. so i could easily tell that they were from the same church. i noticed that they tend to talk so loud that even the tv volume of the shop was quite loud every1 could still hear their voices. Gives me the impression that they are trying to promote their church. whats worse is when i tried to serve them by asking "May i help u" politely, they didn't even bother replying to me. Even if its a no thank you its some form of courtesy rite? But no, they simply continued their conversation loudly within themselves. When they left the shop, all the vcds were messed up, they just take up the vcd, look, not interested, andhow place them making the place look messy and an eyesore.
3) Neighbour, whole family are duno christians or catholics cant really differentiate. they have a picture of Mary at their front door. Seen them many times while taking lift down stairs. A few incidents when my wife and i were coming back home, we always see him at the lift waiting for the lift too. but that neighbour will always go in the lift and faster press door close making both of us wait for another lift. Well, i can tell u with very sure confirmation he can see us when he's going in the lift. He simply wont wait for us. Even siometimes when going down, he sees us locking our door and about to walk towards the lift, he will not wait too. its not as if waiting a few secs will cause him to lose millions of dollars rite.
these incidents actually leave me pondering what are the churches in singapore really teaching the believers now. Is it to be more self centered and only their religion is the one and only religion that is real and the rest of the religions are crap? To be arrogant and snobbish to be a christain/catholic?
To look down on other ppl just because they dont share ur same believes?
Its really annoying to know that these ppl are like that. I'm not saying that all church goers are like this. In fact i also know alot of good christains/catholics. But those ppl mentioned above are simply blacksheep. tarnishing the religion instead of bringing it proud.
and like i said i apologise here if my tread has somehow offended u indirectly, but i'm just stating some of my thouhts. -
Hi,
I'm sorry that you have those experiences.
And I will like to apologise on behalf of those pple that made you have such a unpleasant experience.
But i can assure you that as long as we're Man, we'll always going to have to struggle with a thing called sin... even for christians.
God didn't came to call righteous people unto repentance but sinners... because the only truely righteous one that ever lived was Jesus Christ, who is God himself and he died precisely because of that on the cross for us to atone for our sins.
No man can claimed to be truely 100% righteous and say that he can save himself thru his good deeds or works and that is why without Christ's atoning sacrifice, no man can please God.
Belive me I had the same misconception as you when i was still a young christian, thinking that christians are all lovey dovey people, but unfortunately that's not always the case and always will be because we all still have to fight the inner sins and struggles within us.
(contrary to what some churches may teach)
The only difference that christians have between non believers is that we have Christ in us to help us whenever we fall again. The process of a sanctified life will always be a ongoing one.
I believe that in the pursuit of knowledge, there's only 2 things that really matters, to know God and to know what is man.
It really is the key to understanding the problems of the world we have today.
I recalled that I too was disappointed at first when i first realized things are not as what I had initially pictured them to be, being a young believer.
But as I grew and searched the scriptures, I started have a better understanding of God and man.
Its easy for us to fall into the sin of self righteousness when we see why a brother is like that or when we become critcal of others who may not be displaying the necessary fruits in their lives.
But I believe when one realizes that ultimately, man are totally depraved and all our good works or deeds are only but filthy rags in God's eyes, he will come to the humble realization that if not for God's Grace which is totally underserved, he or she is no better off than that person.
So I'm sure that although you've had these experience with these christians, I think its only fair to say that for every bad side there's also a good side, right?
Just as it is with other faiths.
I'm sure that your bad experiences will not just be confined to christians.
We meet buddhists, muslims or whatever pple who too have given people a bad impression.
And I sympathise with your experience with Christianity.
Much of what is portrayed today of Christianity, with some of the teachings going around these days and the seclarization of many churches, believe me it is not a true representation of what true Christianity is.
And trust me I too grieve with you on this.
There is much that the Church (universal church) has to repent of but I think that is another topic altogether.
If you have any other questions or would just like to know more, feel free to pm me.
Hope you have a good day ahead. -
i'm going into this point u mentioned here.Originally posted by Mystix:Hi,
I'm sorry that you have those experiences.
And I will like to apologise on behalf of those pple that made you have such a unpleasant experience.
But i can assure you that as long as we're Man, we'll always going to have to struggle with a thing called sin... even for christians.
God didn't came to call righteous people unto repentance but sinners... because the only truely righteous one that ever lived was Jesus Christ, who is God himself and he died precisely because of that on the cross for us to atone for our sins.
No man can claimed to be truely 100% righteous and say that he can save himself thru his good deeds or works and that is why without Christ's atoning sacrifice, no man can please God.
Belive me I had the same misconception as you when i was still a young christian, thinking that christians are all lovey dovey people, but unfortunately that's not always the case and always will be because we all still have to fight the inner sins and struggles within us.
(contrary to what some churches may teach)
The only difference that christians have between non believers is that we have Christ in us to help us whenever we fall again. The process of a sanctified life will always be a ongoing one.
I believe that in the pursuit of knowledge, there's only 2 things that really matters, to know God and to know what is man.
It really is the key to understanding the problems of the world we have today.
I recalled that I too was disappointed at first when i first realized things are not as what I had initially pictured them to be, being a young believer.
But as I grew and searched the scriptures, I started have a better understanding of God and man.
Its easy for us to fall into the sin of self righteousness when we see why a brother is like that or when we become critcal of others who may not be displaying the necessary fruits in their lives.
But I believe when one realizes that ultimately, man are totally depraved and all our good works or deeds are only but filthy rags in God's eyes, he will come to the humble realization that if not for God's Grace which is totally underserved, he or she is no better off than that person.
So I'm sure that although you've had these experience with these christians, I think its only fair to say that for every bad side there's also a good side, right?
Just as it is with other faiths.
I'm sure that your bad experiences will not just be confined to christians.
We meet buddhists, muslims or whatever pple who too have given people a bad impression.
And I sympathise with your experience with Christianity.
Much of what is portrayed today of Christianity, with some of the teachings going around these days and the seclarization of many churches, believe me it is not a true representation of what true Christianity is.
And trust me I too grieve with you on this.
There is much that the Church (universal church) has to repent of but I think that is another topic altogether.
If you have any other questions or would just like to know more, feel free to pm me.
Hope you have a good day ahead.
thats the main reason i think many ppl have started going church. they think that they can keep on sinning and being forgiven over and over again believing that eventually no matter what bad deeds they have done they will still enjoy eternal bliss when they pass on. Which to me i think its bullcrap in total.
example :
Lets say this man A is a christain and he is also a serial killer. can he be forgiven for all those murders he has committed?
i know this example is abit too far fetched but its true that nowadays ppl take up christainity due to this reason. Agree? -
They are Singaporeans........
I think u are too sensitive liao.......Originally posted by boredandsleepy:Since i was in secondary sch i have always thought that christian, catholics etc... is a very holy religion with good teachings and good followers, but in the recent yrs i've noticed this changed alot.
take the pastor cheating on church funds for example, detroying the faith and trust of his fellow church mates by using their money for the chruch for himself.
and then comes the ***Y ******T teeagers being rude in public and misbehaving themselves in public by acting so rowdy. and also spreading rumours that if u wana see chio bus u have to come here. it really defeats the purpose fo attending the church totally.
well, those above are just on the general where most ppl alrdy knows. For myself, my wife and i have alrdy encountered many incidents that makes me think otherwise of this religion.
1) My wife's collegue who has never initiated a conversation to tohers before suddenly tries to make friends with my wife, talking nonstop and being very close to her. And also trying to solve most of her work problems for her even though its nt her department. After 1 week, pop comes the main motive. She actually wants my wife to go join her in her church, well i wasnt the kind who says no to sunday morning churches so i told her to go ahead.
After 2 sessions to her church, my wife finds that she actually don't really belong there cos she feels uneasy in the church. My wife then told her collegue the truth and she stopped going to that church. All of a sudden, her collegue stopped talking to her, and treats her in a hostile manner and even blocked her from the MSN. Bad impression built up here.
2) when i was in the retail line in a particular VCD shop, on fateful sunday afternoon, there was this grp of ladies around their early 30s came into the shop, while browsing the VCDs they were chatting quite loudly to each other talking about the morning's bible studies thingy. so i could easily tell that they were from the same church. i noticed that they tend to talk so loud that even the tv volume of the shop was quite loud every1 could still hear their voices. Gives me the impression that they are trying to promote their church. whats worse is when i tried to serve them by asking "May i help u" politely, they didn't even bother replying to me. Even if its a no thank you its some form of courtesy rite? But no, they simply continued their conversation loudly within themselves. When they left the shop, all the vcds were messed up, they just take up the vcd, look, not interested, andhow place them making the place look messy and an eyesore.
3) Neighbour, whole family are duno christians or catholics cant really differentiate. they have a picture of Mary at their front door. Seen them many times while taking lift down stairs. A few incidents when my wife and i were coming back home, we always see him at the lift waiting for the lift too. but that neighbour will always go in the lift and faster press door close making both of us wait for another lift. Well, i can tell u with very sure confirmation he can see us when he's going in the lift. He simply wont wait for us. Even siometimes when going down, he sees us locking our door and about to walk towards the lift, he will not wait too. its not as if waiting a few secs will cause him to lose millions of dollars rite.
these incidents actually leave me pondering what are the churches in singapore really teaching the believers now. Is it to be more self centered and only their religion is the one and only religion that is real and the rest of the religions are crap? To be arrogant and snobbish to be a christain/catholic?
To look down on other ppl just because they dont share ur same believes?
Its really annoying to know that these ppl are like that. I'm not saying that all church goers are like this. In fact i also know alot of good christains/catholics. But those ppl mentioned above are simply blacksheep. tarnishing the religion instead of bringing it proud.
and like i said i apologise here if my tread has somehow offended u indirectly, but i'm just stating some of my thouhts. -
it could be ba.... but among those christains i know, they really care for the ppl around them alot even those whom they do not know. well its the blacksheeps ....Originally posted by laoda99:They are Singaporeans........
I think u are too sensitive liao....... -
But human nature/Singaporean kiasu culture should never be an excuse to falter.
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If u are the serial killer, what would u do?Originally posted by boredandsleepy:i'm going into this point u mentioned here.
thats the main reason i think many ppl have started going church. they think that they can keep on sinning and being forgiven over and over again believing that eventually no matter what bad deeds they have done they will still enjoy eternal bliss when they pass on. Which to me i think its bullcrap in total.
example :
Lets say this man A is a christain and he is also a serial killer. can he be forgiven for all those murders he has committed?
i know this example is abit too far fetched but its true that nowadays ppl take up christainity due to this reason. Agree? -
Then you have to ask the question, what is true repentence?
Its true alot of people professing themselves as 'christians' are like what you have said.
They want Christ as their Savior but not as their Lord.
Theologically speaking, they were never born again.
The Bible makes it very clear
Faith without works is dead. -
One question....
What if this thread annoys me directly???? Not sure how one can be annoyed indirectly????
sorry, being naughty here.... too serious recently lah.
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if i'm not caught i'll probably be off killing more ppl. but if i'm alrdy caught i might as well resign to fate since what i get now is due to what i have done.Originally posted by laoda99:If u are the serial killer, what would u do?
taking up a religion on the brink of death is just a way to lie to urself. -
Ok. So after u get caught u resign to fate and then wat?Originally posted by boredandsleepy:if i'm not caught i'll probably be off killing more ppl. but if i'm alrdy caught i might as well resign to fate since what i get now is due to what i have done.
taking up a religion on the brink of death is just a way to lie to urself. -
so whats the difference between you and that serial killer?
If you were dead now and you're standing at the gates of heaven now and God ask u to give him a reason why you deserve to be in heaven, what would u have replied? -
I think boredandsleepy may prefer to be resigned to fate and go hell for what he has done, if he is a serial killer.Originally posted by Mystix:so whats the difference between you and that serial killer?
If you were dead now and you're standing at the gates of heaven now and God ask u to give him a reason why you deserve to be in heaven, what would u have replied? -
I'm asking him to treat my question as if he's not a serial killer.Originally posted by laoda99:I think boredandsleepy may prefer to be resigned to fate and go hell for what he has done, if he is a serial killer.
Now what would you (boredandsleepy) have said to God? -
Wah another serial killer going to heaven or hell issue
*runs away* -
me and the killer not much diff, only thing difference is he had done worse sins than i did. humans do sin i'm aware of that. but it doesnt mean that u can be forgiven over and over again for the repeated sins or multiple sins u have comitted by God himself.i would not give any reasons to step into heaven. if He sees something in me which He thinks i deserves a place in heaven then i'd be happy but if not, then i'll just try to make my stay in hell an enjoyable 1.Originally posted by Mystix:so whats the difference between you and that serial killer?
If you were dead now and you're standing at the gates of heaven now and God ask u to give him a reason why you deserve to be in heaven, what would u have replied?
I for 1 am not a strong believer of these things as i'm quite skeptical and believes in science more than supernatural. the thing i look into christainity is becos of their good teachings and their care for each other that draws my attention to them.
and yes if i am the killer i would rather resign to fate than to get down on my knees hoping that a miracle would happen to me. -
but that miracle can happen. See the robber hanging on the cross next to Yeshua... but the key as always in your heart condition.Originally posted by boredandsleepy:me and the killer not much diff, only thing difference is he had done worse sins than i did. humans do sin i'm aware of that. but it doesnt mean that u can be forgiven over and over again for the repeated sins or multiple sins u have comitted by God himself.i would not give any reasons to step into heaven. if He sees something in me which He thinks i deserves a place in heaven then i'd be happy but if not, then i'll just try to make my stay in hell an enjoyable 1.
I for 1 am not a strong believer of these things as i'm quite skeptical and believes in science more than supernatural. the thing i look into christainity is becos of their good teachings and their care for each other that draws my attention to them.
and yes if i am the killer i would rather resign to fate than to get down on my knees hoping that a miracle would happen to me. -
Thanks.
I think we can already come to the understanding that people who live a decadent lifestyle with no remorse or inclination towards repentance even though they claim themselves to 'christians' have obviously not been saved in the first place.
Now my question, what about those people who honestly seek to please God and live a change life and yet stumble time and again even though they tried very hard, do you think that God will stop forgiving them because they do not live up to his standards?
Maybe you would like to define sin.. what is sin?
What makes a serial killer's sin worse than ours? -
Hmmm......so u dun like to be forgiven and rather burn in hell?Originally posted by boredandsleepy:me and the killer not much diff, only thing difference is he had done worse sins than i did. humans do sin i'm aware of that. but it doesnt mean that u can be forgiven over and over again for the repeated sins or multiple sins u have comitted by God himself.i would not give any reasons to step into heaven. if He sees something in me which He thinks i deserves a place in heaven then i'd be happy but if not, then i'll just try to make my stay in hell an enjoyable 1.
I for 1 am not a strong believer of these things as i'm quite skeptical and believes in science more than supernatural. the thing i look into christainity is becos of their good teachings and their care for each other that draws my attention to them.
and yes if i am the killer i would rather resign to fate than to get down on my knees hoping that a miracle would happen to me. -
if they really would follow God's path, no matter how he stumble it wont be that often. Unless the person has low preserverence.Originally posted by Mystix:Thanks.
I think we can already come to the understanding that people who live a decandent lifestyle with no remorse or inclination towards repentance even though they claim themselves to 'christian' have obviously not been saved in the first place.
Now my question, what about those people who honestly seek to please God and live a change life and yet stumble time and again even though they tried very hard, do you think that God will stop forgiving them because they do not live up to his standards?
Maybe you would like to define sin.. what is sin?
My uncle who was a chain smoker for 30 odd yrs, foul mouthed, bad temper person, totally changed into another person right after he became a christain... now thats what i call preserverence. cos i know its very hard to stop smoking immediately -
they are arguing on whether to call jesus by his original name or new name, about whether someone wld go to hell or heaven after he dies, and all the funny conflicts between churches.
u think anyone would bother about moral issues in life for the living? -
Hmmm moral issues? Like wat?Originally posted by Ito_^:they are arguing on whether to call jesus by his original name or new name, about whether someone wld go to hell or heaven after he dies, and all the funny conflicts between churches.
u think anyone would bother about moral issues in life for the living?
A serial killer who go around killing pple in the hope tat he will go hell? Obviously he will get his wish of coz..... -
I agree with you. We are expected to live a life of sanctification and christians should display the fruits of the Spirit as their lives progresses.Originally posted by boredandsleepy:if they really would follow God's path, no matter how he stumble it wont be that often. Unless the person has low preserverence.
My uncle who was a chain smoker for 30 odd yrs, foul mouthed, bad temper person, totally changed into another person right after he became a christain... now thats what i call preserverence. cos i know its very hard to stop smoking immediately
And as much as we thank God for those people who displays a 360 degree change overnight, there are those who don't have that kind of miraculous change. Now what do we say of these kind of people?
And what does it mean by not that often?
We all have our own struggles with our sins. Some of us may feel that a particular sin (eg maybe jealousy) is not really a issue and have victory over that easily but for others that very same sin may be something that they will have to face and struggle to have victory over for the rest of their lives. -
what i meant by not that often means that if they really do take God's teachings into considerations, they will keep reminding themselves of it and not to do comit that mistake over and over again. this takes time for some but seriously if u are really into it, u won't stumble and fall so many times repeating ur mistakes.
And now this is what i meant by having preserverence... fighting with ur own sins. take the example u gave : jealousy.... if u really have preserverence and really wants to follow God's way, u would have reminded urself that having such thoughts is bad and will eventually change urself.
u dun go around telling ppl u're a christain and therefore u have changed ur jealousy charecteristics whereby u still have thoughts about it. actions speak louder than words u know. if u really are a devoted christain then prove it by actions and not just by words.
well i'm about to go home now myb i'll continue this tomorrow. -
Isn't tat good to be forgiven?Originally posted by boredandsleepy:what i meant by not that often means that if they really do take God's teachings into considerations, they will keep reminding themselves of it and not to do comit that mistake over and over again. this takes time for some but seriously if u are really into it, u won't stumble and fall so many times repeating ur mistakes.
And now this is what i meant by having preserverence... fighting with ur own sins. take the example u gave : jealousy.... if u really have preserverence and really wants to follow God's way, u would have reminded urself that having such thoughts is bad and will eventually change urself.
u dun go around telling ppl u're a christain and therefore u have changed ur jealousy charecteristics whereby u still have thoughts about it. actions speak louder than words u know. if u really are a devoted christain then prove it by actions and not just by words.
well i'm about to go home now myb i'll continue this tomorrow.