People misuse the quote by David regarding the anointed
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David was the one who said not to touch the Lord's anointed but do u know in the context who he was refering to? It was King Saul! The anointing had already left him & went to David, so David was the truly anointed one instead of Saul.
So when pastors, leaders or people try to defend themselves by saying dont touch the Lord's anointed, dont u think the anointing has already left them like Saul & went to the person who oppose them? Like Saul they might be possessed by an evil spirit already & leading ppl astray.
So the anointed isnt really anointed at all! Hahaha... -
Good one....
....but not the first time that a church leaders misuse scripture for their personal agenda..... -
I only have problem with this linkage of thought with Pastors/Leaders and them being like Saul, oppressed by evil spirit.Originally posted by Raptured:David was the one who said not to touch the Lord's anointed but do u know in the context who he was refering to? It was King Saul! The anointing had already left him & went to David, so David was the truly anointed one instead of Saul.
So when pastors, leaders or people try to defend themselves by saying dont touch the Lord's anointed, dont u think the anointing has already left them like Saul & went to the person who oppose them? Like Saul they might be possessed by an evil spirit already & leading ppl astray.
So the anointed isnt really anointed at all! Hahaha...
I agree that this text is commonly used on leadership context.
Cheers -
My problem with this is that.Originally posted by Raptured:David was the one who said not to touch the Lord's anointed but do u know in the context who he was refering to? It was King Saul! The anointing had already left him & went to David, so David was the truly anointed one instead of Saul.
So when pastors, leaders or people try to defend themselves by saying dont touch the Lord's anointed, dont u think the anointing has already left them like Saul & went to the person who oppose them? Like Saul they might be possessed by an evil spirit already & leading ppl astray.
So the anointed isnt really anointed at all! Hahaha...
1) how do we know who is anointed, the pastor? or the one who oppose?
Alternative: in King David's case, the one who make the statement is David (the anointed one) and not Saul (the one whom you claim the anointing had already left), if you want to comapre apples to apples, then are you can also say the one making the statement is the anointed one, hence the pastor making the statement.
so, since we is not able to really ascertain which is which, would it be better not to presume?
2) In the context, David was refering to Saul who was once anointed, David reason on not touching the Lord's anointed is that he (David) is trusting God to do the right thing. In this case of an supposingly errant pastor/leader, can we also trust God to do the right thing?
cheers. -
The bible did say that ppl will go astray even pastors being seduced by evil spirits. I thot u yourself oppose certain leaders like Tim Lahaye, Hal Lindsey, Benny Hinn etc etc? So how could seemingly good pastors like them be wrong unless they got possessed or seduced somehow?Originally posted by M©+square:I only have problem with this linkage of thought with Pastors/Leaders and them being like Saul, oppressed by evil spirit.
I agree that this text is commonly used on leadership context.
Cheers -
1) Sometimes it isnt the pastor making the statement but followers of the pastor. But ok got your pt.Originally posted by vince69:My problem with this is that.
1) how do we know who is anointed, the pastor? or the one who oppose?
Alternative: in King David's case, the one who make the statement is David (the anointed one) and not Saul (the one whom you claim the anointing had already left), if you want to comapre apples to apples, then are you can also say the one making the statement is the anointed one, hence the pastor making the statement.
so, since we is not able to really ascertain which is which, would it be better not to presume?
2) In the context, David was refering to Saul who was once anointed, David reason on not touching the Lord's anointed is that he (David) is trusting God to do the right thing. In this case of an supposingly errant pastor/leader, can we also trust God to do the right thing?
cheers.
2) Ok sure we can trust God bcos He sees & knows everything. So no one can hide behind a mask for long. Hehe..
Kan Bei! -
Spirit possession is a completely different ballgame altogether.Originally posted by Raptured:The bible did say that ppl will go astray even pastors being seduced by evil spirits. I thot u yourself oppose certain leaders like Tim Lahaye, Hal Lindsey, Benny Hinn etc etc? So how could seemingly good pastors like them be wrong unless they got possessed or seduced somehow?
I'm quite sure you don't know me well enough to assume that i oppose them.
I only oppose wrong teachings and questionable application/quotation of biblical scriptures.
It is not theological to simply write Pastors and Leaders off that they are seduced or possessed. At this point, i have to address that, you're over spiritualising the whole issue, and place the blame onto Old satan.
Let me point out one example, A godly senior pastor went into magic performance as a form of evangelism. I've heard the audio sermon last week that he confess that he lost track of the ministry where God wanted him to move in. And he wants to get back on track.
Was he seduced or possessed at that point of time and recovered?
There are some point of Leader's life when they did things by their own strength or over-emphaised or form doctrines thru their own personal revelations.
I wouldn't say they were
1)Possessed (possession = completely control by demons and minimal self will)
2)They might be possibly be seduced by wrong spirits.
3)Yes Leaders and Pastor are also prone to mistakes and taking wrong steps. Because humans are falliable afterall.
I suppose you don't mean to tell me that the Anionted King DAVID case of Affair with Bathsheba was a possession of Spirit?
He might have been seduced/tempted by unclean THOUGHTS and he succumb onto the thoughts.
But he is definitely not possessed.
And he knows very well, it was his(David's) own sins. He blames nothing and noone for his fall.
To you, it may seem it's seduction or possession.
To me, there is a more powerful and dangerous thing in human than in demons. It's called Desires.
Devil is just an agent to exploiting and distorting this powerful nature we have.
With this, i'll end with a note.
Don't blame old satan for problem every problems. Some are direct, some indirect, some are non of his pasah...
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thought it was something bout me.
lol!! -
aaaa? so no more magic show from Larry and Pris?Originally posted by M©+square:Let me point out one example, A godly senior pastor went into magic performance as a form of evangelism. I've heard the audio sermon last week that he confess that he lost track of the ministry where God wanted him to move in. And he wants to get back on track.
Was he seduced or possessed at that point of time and recovered?
I reckon when the whole thing started, he must have felt that he was led by the spirit. So eventually maybe either things isn't going well and suddenly needed to stop and look, and conclude that God wanted him back in church....
perhaps one time or another we are seduced by the spirit of ambition. -
He still is continuing the ministry of 'magic'.Originally posted by Chin Eng:aaaa? so no more magic show from Larry and Pris?
I reckon when the whole thing started, he must have felt that he was led by the spirit. So eventually maybe either things isn't going well and suddenly needed to stop and look, and conclude that God wanted him back in church....
perhaps one time or another we are seduced by the spirit of ambition.
There's still Magic Show from Lawry and Pris. Don't know if you're disappointed or happy.
But God showed him that he had somehow neglected the LOVE Singapore project. So he called the church to get back focus together with him and work on Love Singapore. It was a repentance and home coming message.
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the pastor had been in the ministry for a very very ling time, imagine, the first time I attend his service was back in 89 when the church is still at SLF building.
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I didnt just say spirit possession. I also said SEDUCTION w/c u yourself agree. It's good that u are being fair to oppose only the teaching but not the person. But where does this wrong teaching come from?Originally posted by M©+square:Spirit possession is a completely different ballgame altogether.
I'm quite sure you don't know me well enough to assume that i oppose them.
I only oppose wrong teachings and questionable application/quotation of biblical scriptures.
It is not theological to simply write Pastors and Leaders off that they are seduced or possessed. At this point, i have to address that, you're over spiritualising the whole issue, and place the blame onto Old satan.
Let me point out one example, A godly senior pastor went into magic performance as a form of evangelism. I've heard the audio sermon last week that he confess that he lost track of the ministry where God wanted him to move in. And he wants to get back on track.
Was he seduced or possessed at that point of time and recovered?
There are some point of Leader's life when they did things by their own strength or over-emphaised or form doctrines thru their own personal revelations.
I wouldn't say they were
1)Possessed (possession = completely control by demons and minimal self will)
2)They might be possibly be seduced by wrong spirits.
3)Yes Leaders and Pastor are also prone to mistakes and taking wrong steps. Because humans are falliable afterall.
I suppose you don't mean to tell me that the Anionted King DAVID case of Affair with Bathsheba was a possession of Spirit?
He might have been seduced/tempted by unclean THOUGHTS and he succumb onto the thoughts.
But he is definitely not possessed.
And he knows very well, it was his(David's) own sins. He blames nothing and noone for his fall.
To you, it may seem it's seduction or possession.
To me, there is a more powerful and dangerous thing in human than in demons. It's called Desires.
Devil is just an agent to exploiting and distorting this powerful nature we have.
With this, i'll end with a note.
Don't blame old satan for problem every problems. Some are direct, some indirect, some are non of his pasah...
Christians believe in the Holy Spirit & it's the Holy Spirit that guides & teaches ppl the right things of God. So cant wrong teaching = evil spirit?
I think u are a bit confused. I DID NOT place the whole blame on satan. Men has a part to play. It takes two to tango but satan might start it first so the foolish men follow him & bad things happen. I can say the old pastor was seduced in a way or just simply tempted by demons. If he didnt listen to the voices, he could have listened to God & done the right thing!
If u believe in God, u would believe in a devil. If that pastor wasnt listening to God who was he listening to? U can say personal failing but i always suspect some demonic interference as well. Well i didnt say all was possessed but some might be seduced that's all.
As i said, i didnt just say possession but also seduction or temptation. David was definitely tempted by the devil using Bathsheba. He listened to him & he fell. He cannot tell God :" God ah! The devil made me do it leh! I am not at fault what!" He is to blame himself that's why he fasted & mourned & prayed but still his baby died.
As u said, the devil can contort our desires, even healthy desires like eating, sleeping or sex. So can i presume without the devil, we wont have so much problems with our desires bcos some are healthy anyway?
I didnt blame devil for every prob but look at book of Job & u know he may just be involved anyway somehow whether direct or indirect. -
Green, Yellow or Red Alert?
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These are the 3 guidelines of MC's theology. (re-enforced)Originally posted by Raptured:I didnt just say spirit possession. I also said SEDUCTION w/c u yourself agree. It's good that u are being fair to oppose only the teaching but not the person. But where does this wrong teaching come from?
Christians believe in the Holy Spirit & it's the Holy Spirit that guides & teaches ppl the right things of God. So cant wrong teaching = evil spirit?
I think u are a bit confused. I DID NOT place the whole blame on satan. Men has a part to play. It takes two to tango but satan might start it first so the foolish men follow him & bad things happen. I can say the old pastor was seduced in a way or just simply tempted by demons. If he didnt listen to the voices, he could have listened to God & done the right thing!
If u believe in God, u would believe in a devil. If that pastor wasnt listening to God who was he listening to? U can say personal failing but i always suspect some demonic interference as well. Well i didnt say all was possessed but some might be seduced that's all.
As i said, i didnt just say possession but also seduction or temptation. David was definitely tempted by the devil using Bathsheba. He listened to him & he fell. He cannot tell God :" God ah! The devil made me do it leh! I am not at fault what!" He is to blame himself that's why he fasted & mourned & prayed but still his baby died.
As u said, the devil can contort our desires, even healthy desires like eating, sleeping or sex. So can i presume without the devil, we wont have so much problems with our desires bcos some are healthy anyway?
I didnt blame devil for every prob but look at book of Job & u know he may just be involved anyway somehow whether direct or indirect.
Anything other than that, it would be cause of other reasons and that affect the Leaders which went beyond the guidelines.
The 3 Guidelines are to give Spiritual Leaders the benefit of doubt, otherwise, there will have lots of Spiritual Leaders in church being seduced, possessed or tempted...whatever you want to phrase it.
There are some point of Leader's life when they did things by their own strength or over-emphaised or form doctrines thru their own personal revelations.
1)To Err in teaching DOES NOT mean Possessed (possession = completely control by demons and minimal self will)
2)They might be possibly be seduced by wrong spirits.
3)Yes Leaders and Pastor are also prone to mistakes and taking wrong steps. Because humans are falliable afterall.
You're not totally wrong. I do have some points which i can agree with you on.
If you're interested to discuss on Works of Spiritual Realm. We can have another topic discussing on it.
Cheers