The gospel is not christian....
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Wah...now u are talking abt context....are u saying I must be living in that time to know that context then? THE CONTEXT IS CRYSTAL CLEAR: Peter and the Judaizers tried to force Jewish ways on Gentile believers and they were reproached by Paul!!!!!Originally posted by breytonhartge:the whole wrong thing about this is that this is that we do not know the full context and the questions and things that were debated... if you truly are seeking, then what is the harm in delving deeper and seeking more of the truth in their proper context and as a whole.
we can choose not to see and be stuck in our so called theologies and risk our salvation and our reward and worse yet find out that we are workers of iniquity because we do not know the Lord and He does not know us? Remember the separation of the sheep and the goats, the goats are not unbelievers but believers...
It is crystal clear that Paul and Peter SETTLED the differences between Jewish and Gentiles Believers. Period. -
wah .. you think we will buy your red herring?Originally posted by breytonhartge:the whole wrong thing about this is that this is that we do not know the full context and the questions and things that were debated... if you truly are seeking, then what is the harm in delving deeper and seeking more of the truth in their proper context and as a whole.
we can choose not to see and be stuck in our so called theologies and risk our salvation and our reward and worse yet find out that we are workers of iniquity because we do not know the Lord and He does not know us? Remember the separation of the sheep and the goats, the goats are not unbelievers but believers...
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Guys, its late....
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It is never too late to increase ratings.Originally posted by laurence82:Guys, its late....
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You know, for once, be serious.Originally posted by Icemoon:It is never too late to increase ratings.
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too serious volcano will erupt.Originally posted by laurence82:You know, for once, be serious.
see .. brey is not even replying now. -
Headaches
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Galatians Chapter 2
Paul Opposes Peter
11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.
14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
15"We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
17"If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. 19For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"[d] -
Galatians 3
Faith or Observance of the Law
1You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?
6Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[a] 7Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."[b] 9So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."[c] 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."[d] 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."[e] 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."[f] 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. -
Galatians 3
21Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ[h] that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. -
Acts 13
38"Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses. 40Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you:
41" 'Look, you scoffers,
wonder and perish,
for I am going to do something in your days
that you would never believe,
even if someone told you.'[f]" -
Acts 15]
The Council at Jerusalem
1Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." 2This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. 3The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the brothers very glad. 4When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.
5Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, "The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses."
6The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
12The whole assembly became silent as they listened to Barnabas and Paul telling about the miraculous signs and wonders God had done among the Gentiles through them. 13When they finished, James spoke up: "Brothers, listen to me. 14Simon[a] has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself. 15The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
16" 'After this I will return
and rebuild David's fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
17that the remnant of men may seek the Lord,
and all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things'[b]
18that have been known for ages.[c]
19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."
The Council's Letter to Gentile Believers
22Then the apostles and elders, with the whole church, decided to choose some of their own men and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They chose Judas (called Barsabbas) and Silas, two men who were leaders among the brothers. 23With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. 24We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.
30The men were sent off and went down to Antioch, where they gathered the church together and delivered the letter. 31The people read it and were glad for its encouraging message. 32Judas and Silas, who themselves were prophets, said much to encourage and strengthen the brothers. 33After spending some time there, they were sent off by the brothers with the blessing of peace to return to those who had sent them.[d] 35But Paul and Barnabas remained in Antioch, where they and many others taught and preached the word of the Lord. -
By 3am, yours truly request all to go sleep.
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Laoda, post in wrong thread?
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what are you talking about? the gentiles are already compromised and had no salvation, and they are the ones that are trying to get saved. Salvation is of the Jews, which means that it comes from the Jews. It was Yahweh who compromised His salvation plan so that we could be saved. As such, the Jews were blinded for our sakes.Originally posted by laoda99:U are wrong! It is the gentiles in the end who compromised on some things so as not to stumble the Jews! Not becoz they have to!!!!!!!!!!!! Think u really need refresher course on the bible.....
And who was reproached? It was Peter who sided with the Judaizers who was reproached by Paul.
Paul had really strong words for those who insist there must be circumcision and become like Jews in order to be saved.
The whole matter at the council of Jerusalem started when a certain sect of the Pharisees insisted that if the new gentile converts were not circumcised, they were not saved. And it was not between Shaul and Peter. But salvation is through faith. However if a gentile were indeed to go through circumcision, does that make him unsaved? No.
The whole argument between Shaul and peter was not about keeping the commandments but about Peters hypocrisy of not fellowshipping with the gentile converts whenever the Jewish christians were around. Go and read galatians 2 again CAREFULLY. You have taken the context of Galatians 2 and put it in a totally different setting.
Salvation is by faith in Yeshua and not by keeping the law. But does it mean that because we are saved we do not have to keep the law? No. for it is in keeping the law that we have no sin. Because how do we gauge what is sin and what is not in Yahweh's sight? It is in the breaking of the law that we sin, therefore the law tells us what is sin and what is not in Yahweh's sight. The bible tells us that if we continue to sin willfully there remains no more sacrifice for sin, so then how can you be saved?
Do not be so blind that every time you see the word Jew or return to biblical roots, you automatically think Judaism or a return to being a Pharisee. It is not the case. If you truly want to walk in the ways of Yeshua, you have to first understand what He is about. Do you mean to tell me that Yahweh gave one set of rules for the Jews and another for the gentiles? This would make Him a double minded God, which He is definitely not. Yahweh has one standard for ALL of HIS CHILDREN. So then if you say that the commandments are done away with and we do not have to follow them, then how do we live our lives AFTER we are saved? What is the standard by which Yahweh will judge us as to whether we sin or not?
The topic of discussion is not how do you get salvation, it is about what happens AFTER you get saved. One does not imply that the other is negated. The law is within salvation and salvation is within the law. BUT SALVATION IS BY FAITH IN YESHUA and it is in knowing the law that we know how to order our walk aright with Yahweh.
If you read the context of galatians 2, the debate there was about keeping the law to BE SAVED. I am talking about keeping the law BECAUSE we are saved. Make that distinction!!!!! -
Originally posted by laoda99:
so you are saying that Yahweh is a double minded God? that He moved the goal posts for the gentiles? NO way!!! That would make Him a very fickle God indeed, which we know HE IS NOT!
Wah...now u are talking abt context....are u saying I must be living in that time to know that context then? [b]THE CONTEXT IS CRYSTAL CLEAR: Peter and the Judaizers tried to force Jewish ways on Gentile believers and they were reproached by Paul!!!!!
It is crystal clear that Paul and Peter SETTLED the differences between Jewish and Gentiles Believers. Period.[/b]
We are not talking about the jewish ways here, we are talking about Yahweh's ways. So what ways do you have to follow? How do you know that you are not walking in sin? What is the standard by which we are now judged?
Still you have not answered my question, if Yeshua said keep the commandments, why are we not? Make the distinction between keeping the commandments and keeping the law. Although the law is an expounding of the commandments and gives very clear definition as to what is and is not sin in the sight of Yahweh. if you can further understand the 613 bylaws, then even better. Like I mentioned before, in Singapore alone we have over thousands of laws to keep, yet we keep them for fear of punishment, why then do we not want to keep the commandments and laws of Yahweh when not keeping them gives us a far worse fate? Because if you willfully sin, there is no more atonement for sin, so how do you know what is sin? Ultimately up to you.
In the book of revelation, Yeshua talks about keeping His word? What is His word? The bible, what does the bible contain? the old and the new testaments, so what does keeping His word mean to you? -
Originally posted by laoda99:[b]Socialoutcast sums it all very well in the other thread:
I beg to disagree.
The commandments can hypothetically be kept, but never actually. Man is depraved to the extent that he can never keep the commandments fully, although he is expected to. The sinful nature of man make him unable to do anything good in God's eyes. Didn't Jesus tell the man who insists he has kept the commandments, that no one is good except God alone?
Therefore, the purpose of the law is to make men conscious of sin.
Do men have to follow the laws? Yes. Can we fully follow it? No. His ability cannot match his responsibility.[/b][/quote]
[quote]Originally posted by SocialOutcast:
I have the idea that what brey is trying to say does not in any sense contradict what I said. So if I misinterpreted, I apologize. -
laoda,
you are making yourself confused, I am talking about going back to biblical ways, and if some of the jewish ways detract from this then they are wrong. Undeniably, most of the biblical ways just so happen to be jewish ways...
Shalom!
Brey -
I think u are most confused.Originally posted by breytonhartge:laoda,
you are making yourself confused, I am talking about going back to biblical ways, and if some of the jewish ways detract from this then they are wrong. Undeniably, most of the biblical ways just so happen to be jewish ways...
Shalom!
Brey
From anti-RC u become anti-Christian. It is ur business if u want to become a Jew, but it is wrong when u want other Christians to turn Jewish like u.
Jews dun exegise the bible like u did. U are treading dangerously as u are not even half-half now. -
God compromised? Sorry no...it was within his ultimate plan to give salvation to the Jews first, and then the Gentiles.
If it is not abt keeping THE LAW (commandments), then Paul mention so many times MOSES' LAW so much? U r indeed blind by your Jewish ways when Paul says so many times that if u try to JUSTIFY BY LAW U ONLY GET DEATH!
There is only one standard: FAITH IN JESUS' CHRIST, not by keeping the LAW. U are preaching a false gospel if u insist on pleasing GOD with the LAW.Originally posted by breytonhartge:
what are you talking about? the gentiles are already compromised and had no salvation, and they are the ones that are trying to get saved. Salvation is of the Jews, which means that it comes from the Jews. It was Yahweh who compromised His salvation plan so that we could be saved. As such, the Jews were blinded for our sakes.
The whole matter at the council of Jerusalem started when a certain sect of the Pharisees insisted that if the new gentile converts were not circumcised, they were not saved. And it was not between Shaul and Peter. But salvation is through faith. However if a gentile were indeed to go through circumcision, does that make him unsaved? No.
The whole argument between Shaul and peter was not about keeping the commandments but about Peters hypocrisy of not fellowshipping with the gentile converts whenever the Jewish christians were around. Go and read galatians 2 again CAREFULLY. You have taken the context of Galatians 2 and put it in a totally different setting.
Salvation is by faith in Yeshua and not by keeping the law. But does it mean that because we are saved we do not have to keep the law? No. for it is in keeping the law that we have no sin. Because how do we gauge what is sin and what is not in Yahweh's sight? It is in the breaking of the law that we sin, therefore the law tells us what is sin and what is not in Yahweh's sight. The bible tells us that if we continue to sin willfully there remains no more sacrifice for sin, so then how can you be saved?
Do not be so blind that every time you see the word Jew or return to biblical roots, you automatically think Judaism or a return to being a Pharisee. It is not the case. If you truly want to walk in the ways of Yeshua, you have to first understand what He is about. Do you mean to tell me that Yahweh gave one set of rules for the Jews and another for the gentiles? This would make Him a double minded God, which He is definitely not. Yahweh has one standard for ALL of HIS CHILDREN. So then if you say that the commandments are done away with and we do not have to follow them, then how do we live our lives AFTER we are saved? What is the standard by which Yahweh will judge us as to whether we sin or not?
[b]The topic of discussion is not how do you get salvation, it is about what happens AFTER you get saved. One does not imply that the other is negated. The law is within salvation and salvation is within the law. BUT SALVATION IS BY FAITH IN YESHUA and it is in knowing the law that we know how to order our walk aright with Yahweh.
If you read the context of galatians 2, the debate there was about keeping the law to BE SAVED. I am talking about keeping the law BECAUSE we are saved. Make that distinction!!!!! [/b] -
why nong leh? This guy is darn funny when he says now we dunno what is the context of the Jerusalem Council.........might as well say we dunno the context of the 4 canonical gospels.....Originally posted by M©+square:Laoda, post in wrong thread? -
Orh, i tot those verses are for Funny exchange between Jesus and Peter thread.Originally posted by laoda99:why nong leh? This guy is darn funny when he says now we dunno what is the context of the Jerusalem Council.........might as well say we dunno the context of the 4 canonical gospels.....
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hmmmmmmmmmmOriginally posted by M©+square:Orh, i tot those verses are for Funny exchange between Jesus and Peter thread. -
right now, I am thinking..... which are Biblical (Yahweh)'s ways and which are Jewish?Originally posted by breytonhartge:I am talking about going back to biblical ways, and if some of the jewish ways detract from this then they are wrong. Undeniably, most of the biblical ways just so happen to be jewish ways...
how does one differentiate a cultural context and a God-given commandment? is it just merely a pronouncement of "so saith the Lord"???? does the Lord have room, in His divine wisdom, for cultural practices outside of Jewish practices? is it an abomination to the Lord if His children decides to commemorate/celebrate His birth, even in a day that may or may not have to do with the actual day? -
Yup, maybe perhaps to him, the entire NT should not exist, 'cos everything beyond that can be attributed to gentiles who do not conform to the Hebraic way of thought.Originally posted by laoda99:why nong leh? This guy is darn funny when he says now we dunno what is the context of the Jerusalem Council.........might as well say we dunno the context of the 4 canonical gospels.....