The gospel is not christian....
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Hi Brey, I am very interested to follow that Jesus you mention to me. However, you make a distinction that the things I understand now as Christianity teaches me is different from those that the Jews teach? Or did I misinterpret?
And for your information, Christianity is never a religious system. It may look like it from the outside, but it is about relationship, as you have said.
And also, I don't understand what you mean by leave the new and go back to the old. Which 'new' things am I believing now that is different from the apostles or early church fathers? -
Or, to make things easier to understand...define what you mean by 'christian' and explain how it is different from what the apostles taught.
Haha. like essay question.
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okie... will get back to you soon, I am finishing a project at the moment. Will PM you.
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I read it many years ago.Originally posted by Solid_Snake:care to share wat is written in the gospel of barnabas?
Can't recall much.
So sorry. -
PM means we won't get to see it.Originally posted by breytonhartge:okie... will get back to you soon, I am finishing a project at the moment. Will PM you.
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you interested meh?Originally posted by Icemoon:PM means we won't get to see it. -
There is no distinction between Jewish and Gentile. Whether u acknowledge Him as Jesus or Yashuah, u will be saved.
To insist only Jewish ways are correct is false teaching and should be corrected, as Paul corrected Peter.Originally posted by breytonhartge:In response to Socialoutcast's post... lets try this... the gospel is not christian, but the gospel is jewish... unless you leave the christian ways which are not connected to the bible, you will still be wandering the desert. Seriously. All the twelve apostles were Jewish and they knew the Torah, and they had power because they knew the word. Unless one leaves the land that you know, you cannot inherit the new land that Yahweh is preparing for us.
Yahweh has given us a new way to worship. We cannot apply the old ways of idol worship to the way we worship Yahweh... which is exactly what is happening in the christian mindset.
The gospel that is life is not christian, the chirstian faith is more connected to death than it is to life. The gospel is israeli. Glory to Yahweh that the gospel is not christian.
I am not saying to get rid of the bible or the gospels, or the new birth, or the holy spirit, or salvation by faith in Yeshua, but we have to get rid of the christian mindset. We have to delve into the bible and go back to the roots, and compare this to what the "church" is about today keeping in mind that for the first century or so, there was no new testament and all the new believers had was the old testament.
Go and dismantle the old mindset and start afresh. Don't worry that it might explode, but Yahweh can heal... and at least the old mindset does not harm anyone else anymore... the christian mindset is a deathtrap. It has killed more people than it has brought alive, I am not talking about the gospel, I am talking about christianity, let us make clear this distinction. Even Shaul was not preaching christianity, he was preaching the word and the signs and wonders followed him... Shaul was preaching relationship with Yahweh, and not a religious system which is what christianity is.
Get the word of Yahweh into you, and not "christian" theology. It is not through christianity, but through the Jewish Messiah of Yeshua Hamashiach that we get saved.
Yahweh will take you to a land that He will show you. You don't know that land yet, but unless you leave the old, you cannot know the new. Leave christianity and come back to the word. None of the religious systems can work. Yeshua is the word of Yahweh made flesh, come back to the word and leave the old lands.
Many times we are afraid to leave our land or to leave the old because we are afraid of losing something. But unless we leave the old, we will stay small. Yahweh wants to bless us but we have to know the truth and so it shall set us free, free to walk our new land and our greater blessings. Do we dare to leave the old land so that Yahweh can show us His land? -
yes.Originally posted by breytonhartge:you interested meh? -
see my post on the name of Yeshua... it was never ever ever Jesus... Jesus is a transliteration, not a translation. Totally different things.Originally posted by laoda99:There is no distinction between Jewish and Gentile. Whether u acknowledge Him as Jesus or Yashuah, u will be saved.
To insist only Jewish ways are correct is false teaching and should be corrected, as Paul corrected Peter.
I am not insisting on jewish ways, I am insisting on a return to the biblical ways of the early church, yet laoda you are so blind to this. The fact that these ways happen to be practiced by the early jewish christians, only speaks more about the origin of our so called "faith".
Yeshua was Jewish, Shaul was Jewish and a Pharisee to boot. Understand that they would never, never forsake the Torah. The faith that we have in Yeshua must embrace the work of Yeshua on the cross whilst accepting that the Torah and Tenakh apply today as well. Faith in Yeshua is enough to save, but beware that you do not get complacent because we are also called to be Holy as He is Holy. If this were not the case, why would it be said? How do we know what is Holy to Yahweh? You have to read the Torah and Tenakh. Being saved does not absolve you from knowing the ways of Yahweh and keeping them.
As I said in one of my earlier posts, Yeshua's work on the cross only frees us from the consequences of our not being able to keep the commandments of Yahweh, it does not free us from keeping them. These are Yahweh's laws applicable to all who believe and call upon the name of Yahweh.
Your post clearly identifies the problem with "christianity" today, that they have strayed so far away from Yeshua's original intention. The church has become a religion, mixing heresies and pagan practices to give a half truth which is worse than a lie!
The great majority of the new testament are quotes from the old testament, and the first century believers only had the old testament, they were brought up and schooled in that alone, and it is the old testament that Yeshua taught from so often when He stood up in the synagogue to teach.
Laoda, you quote that there is no distinction between jew and gentile, so when you become Yahweh's child what are you? His child, so as His child, are you then not obliged to be about your Fathers business as Yeshua did? Yet how can you do so unless you know what your Father's business is?
In the Lord, there is no jew or gentile, but you still have to know your bible and keep the commandments. Take for example the whole book of revelation, the most part of it is from the old testament, if you do not understand the old testament, then all of the book of revelation will be to you is a "christianised" version... -
Interesting discussion.
So this is Laoda99? -
As much as u say I am blind to watever u insist, u are blind as well becoz scriptures indeed say no difference between Jews or Gentiles who followed Christ. The differences between Jewish and Gentile believers were resolved long ago by Paul and Peter. And yet u are trying to say we must return to Jewish ways to worship Jesus. This is false teaching which must be corrected.
Yeshua was Jewish, Shaul was Jewish, I agree, so? It is only God's sovereignty that he predestined them to be Jewish.
We know what is Holy to Yahweh by studying the bible, which include the Torah which u said. I have said in my earlier posts that Christ is not a task master. As for Pharisees, by insisting on Jewish ways u are becoming like one.
U said:"Laoda, you quote that there is no distinction between jew and gentile, so when you become Yahweh's child what are you? His child, so as His child, are you then not obliged to be about your Fathers business as Yeshua did? Yet how can you do so unless you know what your Father's business is?"
What is your father's business? To make everyone Jews?Originally posted by breytonhartge:see my post on the name of Yeshua... it was never ever ever Jesus... Jesus is a transliteration, not a translation. Totally different things.
I am not insisting on jewish ways, I am insisting on a return to the biblical ways of the early church, yet laoda you are so blind to this. The fact that these ways happen to be practiced by the early jewish christians, only speaks more about the origin of our so called "faith".
Yeshua was Jewish, Shaul was Jewish and a Pharisee to boot. Understand that they would never, never forsake the Torah. The faith that we have in Yeshua must embrace the work of Yeshua on the cross whilst accepting that the Torah and Tenakh apply today as well. Faith in Yeshua is enough to save, but beware that you do not get complacent because we are also called to be Holy as He is Holy. If this were not the case, why would it be said? How do we know what is Holy to Yahweh? You have to read the Torah and Tenakh. Being saved does not absolve you from knowing the ways of Yahweh and keeping them.
As I said in one of my earlier posts, Yeshua's work on the cross only frees us from the consequences of our not being able to keep the commandments of Yahweh, it does not free us from keeping them. These are Yahweh's laws applicable to all who believe and call upon the name of Yahweh.
Your post clearly identifies the problem with "christianity" today, that they have strayed so far away from Yeshua's original intention. The church has become a religion, mixing heresies and pagan practices to give a half truth which is worse than a lie!
The great majority of the new testament are quotes from the old testament, and the first century believers only had the old testament, they were brought up and schooled in that alone, and it is the old testament that Yeshua taught from so often when He stood up in the synagogue to teach.
Laoda, you quote that there is no distinction between jew and gentile, so when you become Yahweh's child what are you? His child, so as His child, are you then not obliged to be about your Fathers business as Yeshua did? Yet how can you do so unless you know what your Father's business is?
In the Lord, there is no jew or gentile, but you still have to know your bible and keep the commandments. Take for example the whole book of revelation, the most part of it is from the old testament, if you do not understand the old testament, they all of the book of revelation will be to you is a "christianised" version... -
Then what are you practicing? What is the foundation of your faith?Originally posted by laoda99:As much as u say I am blind to watever u insist, u are blind as well becoz scriptures indeed say no difference between Jews or Gentiles who followed Christ. The differences between Jewish and Gentile believers were resolved long ago by Paul and Peter. And yet u are trying to say we must return to Jewish ways to worship Jesus.
Yeshua was Jewish, Shaul was Jewish, I agree, so? It is only God's sovereignty that he predestined them to be Jewish.
We know what is Holy to Yahweh by studying the bible, which include the Torah which u said. I have said in my earlier posts that Christ is not a task master. As for Pharisees, by insisting on Jewish ways u are becoming like one.
U said:"Laoda, you quote that there is no distinction between jew and gentile, so when you become Yahweh's child what are you? His child, so as His child, are you then not obliged to be about your Fathers business as Yeshua did? Yet how can you do so unless you know what your Father's business is?"
What is your father's business? To make everyone Jews?
You have posted so many contradictions in this that it is laughable...
Read my post again, did I say a return to Jewish ways? I said a return to biblical roots, which just so happen to be Jewish two totally different things. No matter how your twist and turn, you will have to come face to face with the fact that your "christian" faith originates from the jews. It is a progression of the Jewish faith which worships the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. We are still worshipping the God of Israel.
I am not asking you to be a jew, but I am asking you to go back to the word of God, instead of just blindly accepting what is taught in the Church today, like I have already mentioned ie, keeping the sabbath, easter and christmas... and there is so much more!
There is much more to our walk with Yahweh than just the New Testament. You have to understand all the New Testament in the proper context, and not the "christianized" version that all of us have been brought up to believe.
My Father's business is to make all like HIM. So the jews already have a big head start on us... not because they are jews or that they believe in judiasm, but because they KNOW the WORD of YAHWEH. They are His firstborn, their whole lives revolved around what pleased Yahweh and what did not... from this we can learn much! -
The foundation of my faith is Christ.
It's ok if u find my postings laughable or contradictory, becoz you failed to look at yours. What kind of believer would post the kind of things u said?
If we must practice what the Jews did, Paul would have relented and said Peter was right. But the opposite happened!!!!!!
Easter/Sabbath/Christmas is only a problem when u think like a pharisee.
Are u saying tat Christians including me only read and know the New Testament?
You said: My Father's business is to make all like HIM. So the jews already have a big head start on us... not because they are jews or that they believe in judiasm, but because they KNOW the WORD of YAHWEH. They are His firstborn, their whole lives revolved around what pleased Yahweh and what did not... from this we can learn much!
Thanks for pointing out it is to make all like HIM, not becoming like Jews. My life center around Christ who is Lord, who give me rest, to become more like him, rather than going to the extremes like Pharisees who think they please God but they dun.
If u want to be a Jew, it is your business. But you are spreading false teachings if u insist we practice Jewish ways.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Then what are you practicing? What is the foundation of your faith?
You have posted so many contradictions in this that it is laughable...
Read my post again, did I say a return to Jewish ways? I said a return to biblical roots, which just so happen to be Jewish two totally different things. No matter how your twist and turn, you will have to come face to face with the fact that your "christian" faith originates from the jews. It is a progression of the Jewish faith which worships the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. We are still worshipping the God of Israel.
I am not asking you to be a jew, but I am asking you to go back to the word of God, instead of just blindly accepting what is taught in the Church today, like I have already mentioned ie, keeping the sabbath, easter and christmas... and there is so much more!
There is much more to our walk with Yahweh than just the New Testament. You have to understand all the New Testament in the proper context, and not the "christianized" version that all of us have been brought up to believe.
My Father's business is to make all like HIM. So the jews already have a big head start on us... not because they are jews or that they believe in judiasm, but because they KNOW the WORD of YAHWEH. They are His firstborn, their whole lives revolved around what pleased Yahweh and what did not... from this we can learn much! -
Refresher course for you then.Originally posted by laoda99:The foundation of my faith is Christ.
It's ok if u find my postings laughable or contradictory, becoz you failed to look at yours. What kind of believer would post the kind of things u said?
If we must practice what the Jews did, Paul would have relented and said Peter was right. But the opposite happened!!!!!!
Easter/Sabbath/Christmas is only a problem when u think like a pharisee.
Are u saying tat Christians including me only read and know the New Testament?
You said: My Father's business is to make all like HIM. So the jews already have a big head start on us... not because they are jews or that they believe in judiasm, but because they KNOW the WORD of YAHWEH. They are His firstborn, their whole lives revolved around what pleased Yahweh and what did not... from this we can learn much!
Thanks for pointing out it is to make all like HIM, not becoming like Jews. My life center around Christ who is Lord, who give me rest, to become more like him, rather than going to the extremes like Pharisees who think they please God but they dun.
If u want to be a Jew, it is your business. But you are spreading false teachings if u insist we practice Jewish ways.
1. You want to become like Yeshua, but Yeshua said be Holy as Yahweh is Holy. Yeshua also said keep the commandments. How else can you interpret that statement? So do you keep the commandments? When Yeshua spoke to the Pharisees, in the passage about tithing, He said that they should tithe, but He also reminded them that they were to keep doing the weightier matters of the law. How then do you reconcile the fact that Yeshua also said that to inherit eternal life, you have to keep the commandments?
2. Easter, sabbath and Christmas are problems. Something that the church has created by incorporating pagan tradition.
Taking the sabbath as an example. What does it say in the ten commandments? You will remember the sabbath day to keep it HOLY. But yet the church insists on keeping the wrong day! Sunday is the first day of the week and is not a HOLY day... Yahweh made the sabbath HOLY and He chose the seventh day, not the first!
3. What you also fail to realize is that in becoming like Yahweh, and if you are serious about this, you will become more like the Jews that you care to admit, why? because that is what they are always trying to do.
4. I am not advocating that we become like Pharisees, but we observe all that Yahweh has commanded us to do in the bible. What is your problem with that? -
A refresher course for u too. Just answer these two simple questions: What lead to the Council of Jerusalem and what was the outcome?Originally posted by breytonhartge:Refresher course for you then.
1. You want to become like Yeshua, but Yeshua said be Holy as Yahweh is Holy. Yeshua also said keep the commandments. How else can you interpret that statement? So do you keep the commandments? When Yeshua spoke to the Pharisees, in the passage about tithing, He said that they should tithe, but He also reminded them that they were to keep doing the weightier matters of the law. How then do you reconcile the fact that Yeshua also said that to inherit eternal life, you have to keep the commandments?
2. Easter, sabbath and Christmas are problems. Something that the church has created by incorporating pagan tradition.
Taking the sabbath as an example. What does it say in the ten commandments? You will remember the sabbath day to keep it HOLY. But yet the church insists on keeping the wrong day! Sunday is the first day of the week and is not a HOLY day... Yahweh made the sabbath HOLY and He chose the seventh day, not the first!
4. What you also fail to realize is that in becoming like Yahweh, and if you are serious about this, you will become more like the Jews that you care to admit, why? because that is what they are always trying to do.
5. I am not advocating that we become like Pharisees, but we observe all that Yahweh has commanded us to do. -
Socialoutcast sums it all very well in the other thread:
I beg to disagree.
The commandments can hypothetically be kept, but never actually. Man is depraved to the extent that he can never keep the commandments fully, although he is expected to. The sinful nature of man make him unable to do anything good in God's eyes. Didn't Jesus tell the man who insists he has kept the commandments, that no one is good except God alone?
Therefore, the purpose of the law is to make men conscious of sin.
Do men have to follow the laws? Yes. Can we fully follow it? No. His ability cannot match his responsibility. -
Well and good that your foundation is christ. That is the essence of the whole thing, that you are a follower of Yeshua, because He set the example for us to walk in.Originally posted by laoda99:The foundation of my faith is Christ.
But who is christ? When you say you know Him on what basis do you say you know Him? Who was He on earth? Where did He live? How did He live? Which commandments did He follow? Which law did He fulfill since He is the fulfillment of the Law? When He came and He called people and said come follow me, you do not even understand the context of how a disciple was made in those days and in the context of the land and culture. In those days, when a rabbi called for disciples, the disciples literally spent 24 hours a day with the rabbi and they imitated him in everything. Yeshua was a rabbi. What does that mean to you? Do you know what a rabbi is and what he believes in and which customs he followed? If we claim to be followers of Yeshua, do we know what we are talking about? do we know who we are following and what we are following? These are basic questions that we have to ponder for the sake of our own salvation. -
*scratch head*Originally posted by breytonhartge:Read my post again, did I say a return to Jewish ways? I said a return to biblical roots, which just so happen to be Jewish two totally different things. No matter how your twist and turn, you will have to come face to face with the fact that your "christian" faith originates from the jews. It is a progression of the Jewish faith which worships the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. We are still worshipping the God of Israel. -
The council of Jerusalem was meant only to be a starting point in order not to stumble the gentiles. But they, the young converts were expected to learn, from the word, which was then only the old testament and not to be stuck in their gentile ways. The young gentile converts were expected to become like Yahweh. This expectation is the same of us today. The council was just a starting point it was not the law on the matter.Originally posted by laoda99:A refresher course for u too. Just answer these two simple questions: What lead to the Council of Jerusalem and what was the outcome? -
No need to write so long winded things.
Just say straight to the point.
What did Paul and Peter agreed at the council of Jerusalem? And who was wrong?Originally posted by breytonhartge:Well and good that your foundation is christ. That is the essence of the whole thing, that you are a follower of Yeshua, because He set the example for us to walk in.
But who is christ? When you say you know Him on what basis do you say you know Him? Who was He on earth? Where did He live? How did He live? Which commandments did He follow? Which law did He fulfill since He is the fulfillment of the Law? When He came and He called people and said come follow me, you do not even understand the context of how a disciple was made in those days and in the context of the land and culture. In those days, when a rabbi called for disciples, the disciples literally spent 24 hours a day with the rabbi and they imitated him in everything. Yeshua was a rabbi. What does that mean to you? Do you know what a rabbi is and what he believes in and which customs he followed? If we claim to be followers of Yeshua, do we know what we are talking about? do we know who we are following and what we are following? These are basic questions that we have to ponder for the sake of our own salvation. -
Don't need to talk so much.Originally posted by breytonhartge:But who is christ? When you say you know Him on what basis do you say you know Him? Who was He on earth? Where did He live? How did He live? Which commandments did He follow? Which law did He fulfill since He is the fulfillment of the Law? When He came and He called people and said come follow me, you do not even understand the context of how a disciple was made in those days and in the context of the land and culture. In those days, when a rabbi called for disciples, the disciples literally spent 24 hours a day with the rabbi and they imitated him in everything. Yeshua was a rabbi. What does that mean to you? Do you know what a rabbi is and what he believes in and which customs he followed? If we claim to be followers of Yeshua, do we know what we are talking about? do we know who we are following and what we are following? These are basic questions that we have to ponder for the sake of our own salvation.
Just name us a few biblical examples of gentile churches practising your so called Jewish ways.
Don't rabbi this and rabbi that. -
U are wrong! It is the gentiles in the end who compromised on some things so as not to stumble the Jews! Not becoz they have to!!!!!!!!!!!! Think u really need refresher course on the bible.....Originally posted by breytonhartge:The council of Jerusalem was meant only to be a starting point in order not to stumble the gentiles. But they, the young converts were expected to learn, from the word, which was then only the old testament and not to be stuck in their gentile ways. The young gentile converts were expected to become like Yahweh. This expectation is the same of us today. The council was just a starting point it was not the law on the matter.
And who was reproached? It was Peter who sided with the Judaizers who was reproached by Paul. Get it? The outcome is Gentiles are to continue their worship while be mindful of the Jews who were stumbled!!!!!
Paul had really strong words for those who insist there must be circumcizion and become like Jews in order to be saved. -
the whole wrong thing about this is that this is that we do not know the full context and the questions and things that were debated... if you truly are seeking, then what is the harm in delving deeper and seeking more of the truth in their proper context and as a whole.Originally posted by laoda99:No need to write so long winded things.
Just say straight to the point.
What did Paul and Peter agreed at the council of Jerusalem? And who was wrong?
we can choose not to see and be stuck in our so called theologies and risk our salvation and our reward and worse yet find out that we are workers of iniquity because we do not know the Lord and He does not know us? Remember the separation of the sheep and the goats, the goats are not unbelievers but believers... -
kama-sama: =_=uuu
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deleted 'cos unbiblical