Church spending disillusion many- where's the governance?
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different, if its funded by the church, then the church concil can stop this practice,Originally posted by laurence82:last line
either way, the money comes from the church's funds
if funded out of his own pocket (be it from his salary/ some other sources), its his own personal decision, the church normally cannot interfere much(except give him/her a pay cut). -
then they might question how come he is given so large a salary enough to buy asspensive carsOriginally posted by vince69:different, if its funded by the church, then the church concil can stop this practice,
if funded out of his own pocket (be it from his salary/ some other sources), its his own personal decision, the church normally cannot interfere much(except give him/her a pay cut).
unless they feel the salary is adquate and not excessive, that he had turned into a penny pinching guy to save up for that car
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don't you know .. a large salary can prevent corruption.Originally posted by laurence82:then they might question how come he is given so large a salary enough to buy asspensive cars
best example: Father Kang. Priests are given $800 a month .. look at what happened? -
This sound so PAPishOriginally posted by Icemoon:don't you know .. a large salary can prevent corruption.
best example: Father Kang. Priests are given $800 a month .. look at what happened? -
who cares? If it works, it works.Originally posted by laurence82:This sound so PAPish
It has been proven to work. -
reality check...Originally posted by Icemoon:don't you know .. a large salary can prevent corruption.
best example: Father Kang. Priests are given $800 a month .. look at what happened?
If a person wants to, even give supper big salary packet also cannot prevent...
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the thread starter used the word exotic cars, and you replied asking what's wrong with pastors driving exotic cars. Each of you must have your own definition on what is exotic cars, luxurious cars and utility cars. I know of a rich man whose maid drive BMW3series fetching his kids to schools. definition varies. Does it matter?Originally posted by vince69:and how many pastor drives exotic cars? (by definition, what is an exotic car? Farrari? BMW 7Series? BMW 3Series? Lexus? )
How many pastor drives Farrari or BMW is not the question, if the pastors want to drive a lexus, first ask, how many in his congregation drive lexus? he should get the answer. -
so you are saying that, its not about whether if he can afford it, but rather what the general congreation can afford?Originally posted by sgdiehard:the thread starter used the word exotic cars, and you replied asking what's wrong with pastors driving exotic cars. Each of you must have your own definition on what is exotic cars, luxurious cars and utility cars. I know of a rich man whose maid drive BMW3series fetching his kids to schools. definition varies. Does it matter?
How many pastor drives Farrari or BMW is not the question, if the pastors want to drive a lexus, first ask, how many in his congregation drive lexus? he should get the answer.
so if a pastor from a rich congreation can drive a BMW... but if this same pastor were to later start a mission church to serve the not so well to do population, he have to sell away his car?
on your remark on how we responded, you are right, we did started with our own definition, which is not really a wise thing to do.
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if everybody in the church drives Farrari, then the pastor drive BMW7 Series, nobody will be 'disillusioned'.Originally posted by vince69:so you are saying that, its not about whether if he can afford it, but rather what the general congreation can afford?
so if a pastor from a rich congreation can drive a BMW... but if this same pastor were to later start a mission church to serve the not so well to do population, he have to sell away his car?
on your remark on how we responded, you are right, we did started with our own definition, which is not really a wise thing to do.
In a poor congregation, where most use public transport, and if the pastor is taking salary from the church, is it wise for him to drive around in a BMW?
Starting a mission church is quite a different things, like some old missionaries who came to singapore, the churches in America paid them enough money to live a standard of life consistant with that in the america, no missionary needed to stay in HDB flat.
What is the issue here? 'members who are disillusioned with luxurious spending of church fund'! if it helps to comfort those disillusioned members, if it set good example to members to live a thrifty life, will the pastor give up his BMW for a toyota?? which comes first and which is the wise thing to do? it is not about can or cannot. -
ok, you point, its not about whether its right or wrong for the pastor to have a luxurous life, if about being sentitive to the feelings of the congreation, the people they are ministering to, putting their needs/feeling as pirority...Originally posted by sgdiehard:if everybody in the church drives Farrari, then the pastor drive BMW7 Series, nobody will be 'disillusioned'.
In a poor congregation, where most use public transport, and if the pastor is taking salary from the church, is it wise for him to drive around in a BMW?
Starting a mission church is quite a different things, like some old missionaries who came to singapore, the churches in America paid them enough money to live a standard of life consistant with that in the america, no missionary needed to stay in HDB flat.
What is the issue here? 'members who are disillusioned with luxurious spending of church fund'! if it helps to comfort those disillusioned members, if it set good example to members to live a thrifty life, will the pastor give up his BMW for a toyota?? which comes first and which is the wise thing to do? it is not about can or cannot.
then I fully agree with you.
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It is about affordability. There are many thing we love to have, but should we pay a high price for it? It may not prove anything but sure show your priority. In singapore where car prices are the highest in the world, owning a car remains a necessity not everybody can afford, owning a BM or Merc is certainly a luxury.Originally posted by Icemoon:Why people drive Merc or BMW or Evo or Wrx? One reason could be they love that car. It may not be they are trying to prove something.
Actually are pastors very busy in church? I don't think pastors work 8-5 every weekday on top of weekends. Furthermore it is not uncommon for pastors to travel overseas and I'm sure the church allows it (as long as it is for Christ).
I guess how busy pastors are in church depends not only on the church but also themselves. I know pastors who works only 8-5, if they had to attend a wake service in the night they believe they are entitled to come in 2 hours later the next morning. Churches do not tell the pastors what they can do what cannot do. Pastors go overseas with the whole family for holiday once every year nobody will question cause most families do that in Singapore. Pastors must decide for themselves what is reasonable and how it might affect the others.
Being a pastor is like being a celebrity, you come under the lime light, everything you do affect the people who look upon you as example. what is their priority? -
First of all, you have gone off topic. You mentioned that most people can keep the commandments that Yeshua spoke about, I am just alluding to the fact that all of us at one time or another have told a white lie... this is giving false testimony. Males being males would tend to ogle a good looking female so this in Yeshua's definition would be adultery. Nothing to do with the rich guy.
First u need to realise the conversation between jesus and the guy. The man ask Jesus wat should he do to obtain salvation and jesus said a list of things out. HE say tat he had fulfilled all these. Now, u need to realise the 10 commandments is more simpler for jewish than the exaggerated ones stated by christians after jesus death. The 10 commandments is definitely followable and they don't treat ogling at girls as committing adultery. Christians exaggerate it simply because they wanna force people to have faith in god. Jewish 10 comandment is followable and is the basic rule to follow. Otherwise u think god condemn every single jewish, including moses to eternal hell ? Then wat a cruel god he is by putting all jewish. god chosen people, to hell. Jewish treat the 10 commandment by reading it literally, unlike christian who like to add in things they like to make jewish sound silyl and unobtainable. Note tat jesus is jewish himself
http://www.ou.org/chagim/shavuot/aseret.htm
"Honor your father and your mother;" and it is also written "a person should revere his mother and father." What is reverence and what is honor? "Reverence" includes such behaviors to be avoided as not to stand in their place or sit in their place, not to contradict them and not even to lend your support to what they have to say. "Honor" includes such actions as to provide food and drink, indirectly and even directly, to provide clothing and even, if necessary, to dress them, to cover them, to bring them in and take them out, etc., etc., in accordance with their needs.
"They asked Rav Ulla, 'To what extent is a child obligated to honor his or her parents?' He answered, 'go and see how a certain non-Jewish resident of Ashkelon behaved, and his name was Dama, son of Nesina. Once the Rabbis wished to purchase an object from them for ritual purposes, for the sum of six hundred thousand "shekalim," let's say, dollars, but the key to the safe was under the head of his sleeping father, and Dama would not disturb his father!' "
"They asked Rabbi Eliezer, 'To what extent is a child obligated to honor his or her parents?' He said to them, 'to the extent that even if the parent would throw the child's wallet into the ocean for no reason, the child should not embarrass the parent!' "
This is one of the three cardinal sins in Judaism, for which an individual is obligated to give up his life. This means that if Person A approaches Person B and says to him, "I will kill you if you do not kill person C," Person B should allow himself to be killed, rather than murder Person C.
This is the third of the three cardinal sins in Judaism, such that if Person A approaches Person B and says to him, "I will kill you if you do not commit adultery with the wife of Person C," Person B must allow himself to be killed rather than commit adultery.
This form of stealing is the stealing of souls; that is, kidnapping, for which the penalty is "bet-din," Jewish Court-administered death. Stealing of money, for which the penalty is financial, is referenced elsewhere in the Torah.
Jewish Tradition holds that one is not even allowed to speak favorably about other individuals, because that too can relatively easily lead one to speak ill of that person. For example, if one says, "What a nice house (car, job, wife, etc.) so-and-so has," it is easy to see how that can lead to feelings of jealousy and "lashon hara," unfavorable speech, or worse. -
I think MC explained this very clearly, it is about testing the man's heart and where he placed his security, in Yeshua or in his riches.
As said before, the passage which i have pasted many times already show god wanted the guy to donate every single cent he have. If there is no need to, then jesus had lied and misled the guy. The rich guy could just simply follow jesus without losing his possession. If there is a need to donate all their possessions, then the pastors here should lead a life of poverty, which is clearly lacking.
Jewish commanments, which Jesus and the rich guy r, r followable. It is not followable only when christian (which is after jesus death) purposely interprete the 10 commandments according to wat they like and not wat jewish believe. WHo can keep the 10 commandments ? Religious Jewish. U don't need to god to be capable to follow the 10 comandmants otherwise tis god is a cruel god who led jewish all to eternal hell. -
Doh!!!!
*MC decided to change destination.
Does forest bashing...* -
*pssst... safe house... 10M infornt of you.... food and drink in the cupboard... go have lunch first... and remember to pack your dinner alongOriginally posted by M©+square: Doh!!!!
*MC decided to change destination.
Does forest bashing...* -
*reply sms* 10 meter or 10 Miles???????Originally posted by vince69:*pssst... safe house... 10M infornt of you.... food and drink in the cupboard... go have lunch first... and remember to pack your dinner along
Hmm....i assume have lunch first...reach there eat dinner. 6-7hrs bash... -
*10 meters lah ... use the side door... main door was locked, cannot find key...Originally posted by M©+square:*reply sms* 10 meter or 10 Miles???????
Hmm....i assume have lunch first...reach there eat dinner. 6-7hrs bash...
*Vince took 4WD, drove to next destination.... -
Originally posted by stupidissmart:
actually "first", you need to realise that you dont know who God is.
First u need to realise the conversation between jesus and the guy. The man ask Jesus wat should he do to obtain salvation and jesus said a list of things out. HE say tat he had fulfilled all these. Now, u need to realise the 10 commandments is more simpler for jewish than the exaggerated ones stated by christians after jesus death. The 10 commandments is definitely followable and they don't treat ogling at girls as committing adultery. Christians exaggerate it simply because they wanna force people to have faith in god. Jewish 10 comandment is followable and is the basic rule to follow. [b]Otherwise u think god condemn every single jewish, including moses to eternal hell ? Then wat a cruel god he is by putting all jewish. god chosen people, to hell. Jewish treat the 10 commandment by reading it literally, unlike christian who like to add in things they like to make jewish sound silyl and unobtainable. Note tat jesus is jewish himself
http://www.ou.org/chagim/shavuot/aseret.htm
"Honor your father and your mother;" and it is also written "a person should revere his mother and father." What is reverence and what is honor? "Reverence" includes such behaviors to be avoided as not to stand in their place or sit in their place, not to contradict them and not even to lend your support to what they have to say. "Honor" includes such actions as to provide food and drink, indirectly and even directly, to provide clothing and even, if necessary, to dress them, to cover them, to bring them in and take them out, etc., etc., in accordance with their needs.
"They asked Rav Ulla, 'To what extent is a child obligated to honor his or her parents?' He answered, 'go and see how a certain non-Jewish resident of Ashkelon behaved, and his name was Dama, son of Nesina. Once the Rabbis wished to purchase an object from them for ritual purposes, for the sum of six hundred thousand "shekalim," let's say, dollars, but the key to the safe was under the head of his sleeping father, and Dama would not disturb his father!' "
"They asked Rabbi Eliezer, 'To what extent is a child obligated to honor his or her parents?' He said to them, 'to the extent that even if the parent would throw the child's wallet into the ocean for no reason, the child should not embarrass the parent!' "
This is one of the three cardinal sins in Judaism, for which an individual is obligated to give up his life. This means that if Person A approaches Person B and says to him, "I will kill you if you do not kill person C," Person B should allow himself to be killed, rather than murder Person C.
This is the third of the three cardinal sins in Judaism, such that if Person A approaches Person B and says to him, "I will kill you if you do not commit adultery with the wife of Person C," Person B must allow himself to be killed rather than commit adultery.
This form of stealing is the stealing of souls; that is, kidnapping, for which the penalty is "bet-din," Jewish Court-administered death. Stealing of money, for which the penalty is financial, is referenced elsewhere in the Torah.
Jewish Tradition holds that one is not even allowed to speak favorably about other individuals, because that too can relatively easily lead one to speak ill of that person. For example, if one says, "What a nice house (car, job, wife, etc.) so-and-so has," it is easy to see how that can lead to feelings of jealousy and "lashon hara," unfavorable speech, or worse. [/b]
And going by the statements you made, i dont think you even understand what the Bible is all about.
When you "ogle" at girls - what goes through your mind ? Or perhaps more accurately, what goes through your loins ? So if you are married, go tell your wife about what goes through your mind when you "ogle" at girls. Tell me then, if she is as pleased as you are with yourself.
Know who Ted Bundy is ? Well, in the beginning, he is also like one of the many men, who like to "ogle"....especially at sensual materials. -
When you "ogle" at girls - what goes through your mind ? Or perhaps more accurately, what goes through your loins ? So if you are married, go tell your wife about what goes through your mind when you "ogle" at girls. Tell me then, if she is as pleased as you are with yourself.
First u need to realise according to jewish belief, the 10 commandment does not include ogling at girl to be against the commandment. TAT is the bottom line. Furthermore, if I am not married, wat is the harm for ogling girls And lastly, when I am married, my wife is not gonna be unhappy for me for ogling at girls. I ogle at house when it is beautiful and look longer at beautiful sports car or virtualy stare at the painting made by famous artist as well. People like to see beautiful things. Wat is the harm for looking at them ? She might even share the guy she is ogling too. -
Oh now we are into definitions for "ogle" - which simply means to you just looking "longer", appreciating her beauty. Of course nothing wrong if you put it that way. But why bring christians into the picture ? Arent u relating to :Originally posted by stupidissmart:First u need to realise according to jewish belief, the 10 commandment does not include ogling at girl to be against the commandment. TAT is the bottom line. Furthermore, if I am not married, wat is the harm for ogling girls And lastly, when I am married, my wife is not gonna be unhappy for me for ogling at girls. I ogle at house when it is beautiful and look longer at beautiful sports car or virtualy stare at the painting made by famous artist as well. People like to see beautiful things. Wat is the harm for looking at them ? She might even share the guy she is ogling too.
"But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart" (Matthew 5:2
???
since you are comparing with the 10 Commandments ????
The above statement made by Jesus is totally different from your definition of ogling.
So what is what ?
Are you sure you know what you talking about ? Or just taking street talk and applying a slap across the face of all christians ? Which christian told you that staring at woman, made you adulterous ? Got a name ? Someone "famous" ?
Not very "scientific" of you....isnt it ? -
since you are comparing with the 10 Commandments ????
However the 10 commandments then r jewish 10 commandments and they do not consider ogling as adultery Furthermore up till now no one has proven tat the rich guy did commit "ogling".
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2010%20;&version=31;
20"Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy."
21Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
From the passage it is obvious tat tis guy did follow the commandments since he is a boy. -
Originally posted by stupidissmart:
till now, who was the one saying the rich man in the quoted verses was ogling?
However the 10 commandments then r jewish 10 commandments and they do not consider ogling as adultery Furthermore up till now no one has proven tat the rich guy did commit "ogling".
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2010%20;&version=31;
20"Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy."
[b]21Jesus looked at him and loved him. "One thing you lack," he said. "Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
From the passage it is obvious tat tis guy did follow the commandments since he is a boy. [/b]
so far the argument is that there is no way a person can keep the ten commandments perfectly, against you, who claim its possible. -
still back to "three heroes battle Lu Bu" scenario.
this time it is Mc2, vince and klydeer. -
then who is Dong Zhuo and Diao Chan?
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*mc sealed himself in a mountian and relac.Originally posted by Icemoon:still back to "three heroes battle Lu Bu" scenario.
this time it is Mc2, vince and klydeer. 
*