Church spending disillusion many- where's the governance?
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A life who acknowledges God possesses and have the right to all.
Is it just me... I don't understand wat is he trying to say
No difference. -
You didn't get me from my first post already.
I've already showed you the contrast, yet you insist that Jesus wants Rich men to give up their possessions SO THAT they could follow him.
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seems like to me, after so many posts, the main point of your problem is withOriginally posted by stupidissmart:So wat r u suggesting ? Jesus ask him to donate all his fortune before following him and he did not. Wat is the difference of tis guy to the rich pastors who live a life of extravangance, a life beyond the reach of normal singaporean.
Furthermore, jesus is the one tat preach about rich people. He never mention anything about "slave to money" etc. U r the one tat say tis. Where in the passage does he mention anything about "slave to money" than rather, money.
"the rich pastors who live a life of extravangance, a life beyond the reach of normal singaporean"
in this case, the verses we are using may not be a the right ones to use,
ok, need to go attend another meeting, will return to this once my load for the day lighten up later.
cheers. -
Rich man refers to Men who loves Power or Wealth.
Now pray tell me wat the hell r u trying to say
Cheers
Possession.
There....
A life who acknowledges God possesses and have the right to all.
No difference.
You didn't get me from my first post already.
I've already showed you the contrast, yet you insist that Jesus wants Rich men to give up their possessions SO THAT they could follow him. U never made any point except rich people=people who loves power and wealth which i have shown u to be wrong. -
SIS .. don't you understand? Vince and Mc2 are born again, you are not.
so there are certain things you cannot understand. -
Nothing except enjoying what Yahweh has blessed them with.Originally posted by sgdiehard:It is not the question of right or wrong for a pastor to drive exotic cars, the question is, what are they trying to prove?? -
but in the context of pastors, seems anything luxury like BMW, Mercs, lexus are counted...Originally posted by Icemoon:in the sg context .. ferraris, lambos etc.
BMWs not counted. -
Really now? You mean that you have never told a white lie? if you have you have just violated one of the commandments. you have never thought about a woman lustfully? if you have you have just committed adultery.Originally posted by stupidissmart:I think most people fulfil all these commandments. -
SIS it sounds to me like you have a chip on your shoulder against rich people.Originally posted by stupidissmart:So wat r u suggesting ? Jesus ask him to donate all his fortune before following him and he did not. Wat is the difference of tis guy to the rich pastors who live a life of extravangance, a life beyond the reach of normal singaporean.
Furthermore, jesus is the one tat preach about rich people. He never mention anything about "slave to money" etc. U r the one tat say tis. Where in the passage does he mention anything about "slave to money" than rather, money.
If anyone wants to be rich, they can, they just have to work harder than most. I for one believe that everything is possible if you believe. This is stated in the bible Mark 9:23.
What exactly is a life of extravagance? How do you define that? So if my family owns 3 european cars, a few landed properties, a couple of condos, have golfing memberships and take holidays, all gained through wise investment and hard work, is that extravagance?
Instead of whinging get a life go and work hard and pursue your dreams and you may just get rich in the process.
There is nothing wrong with being rich, it is only when you love being rich more than you love Yeshua that there is a problem. Like Vince was trying to say which you constantly miss... it is a condition of the HEART. What does your heart desire?
When Yeshua said keep the commandments, you have to read it in the context of the culture, which was distinctly jewish.. the rich young man would have understood that keeping the commandments meant keeping ALL the commandments. Did Yeshua preach about all rich people? I don not think so, just that he used the example of that rich young ruler loving money more than he loved eternal life. -
There were plenty mighty men of God who were Wealthy.....
1) ABRAHAM - Father of all nations
2) Moses - Was a Prince and i believe he needed a whole vast of wealth in order to lead the jews out into the promise land
3) David - from a humble shepard to a King
4) Solomon - Super RICH & WISE
5) Joseph - became the egyptian's king right hand man
just to name a few.......
A tot to ponder,
Does it bring God any Glory to see his children in the pits? Do being humble necessarily that u have to live "as poor as a church mouse"? Wat does Jehovah Jireh mean to u? Wat does "sowing" into the Kingdom of God mean to u? -
From verse 16 - 22, you jumped to verse 23.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Now pray tell me wat the hell r u trying to say U never made any point except rich people=people who loves power and wealth which i have shown u to be wrong.
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[quote]
The reply jesus gave to the man is still
If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.
And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother[f] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.
IF the message is true, then the rich have to donate the money before following jesus. If it is false, then jesus had lied and misled the rich guy. He can just obtain salvation by following him without donating money. The question tat guy ask is "wat good things must I do to receive eternal life". I do not sense pride etc but rather a humble person asking for guidance
If tat is the case, then jesus could have just told him to follow him, instead of asking him to donate all the money before following him
Lastly, the catholic believe the statement is indeed implying a life of poverty, a life without material possession as a means of following god. I don't think u can say tat i interprete the above wrongly
When i was explaining verse 16-22, you didn't even reply then skipped to verse 23~
My initial post was to answer the colored olive text.
To reply to verse 23 which you've questioned.
'Rich men' contextually, was anchored onto this verse
22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
'Rich Men' only refers to those who responded the way the young men in the biblical passage did.
Which was how Rich men - meant in the passage : Men who loved their worldly possessions.
Jesus didn't mean for ALL rich men to give up their wealths to follow him. (refers to Zacchaeus once again). -
You mean they are enjoying the fruits of other people's hard earned labour.Originally posted by breytonhartge:Nothing except enjoying what Yahweh has blessed them with. -
wah .. this time Mc2 personally chu1 ma3 .. very powerful.
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/me pack bag and escape to mountain top.Originally posted by Icemoon:wah .. this time Mc2 personally chu1 ma3 .. very powerful. -
To consult the flaming bush?Originally posted by M©+square:/me pack bag and escape to mountain top. -
Very long no talk to burning bush lo....Originally posted by dakkon_blackblade:To consult the flaming bush?
I doh want white hair leh. -
*pass keys to log house to Mc2....psst the blankets are in the cupboardOriginally posted by M©+square:/me pack bag and escape to mountain top. -
Sorry to disappoint you, but your reply does not rest on firm biblical foundation.Originally posted by babyys:There were plenty mighty men of God who were Wealthy.....
1) ABRAHAM - Father of all nations
2) Moses - Was a Prince and i believe he needed a whole vast of wealth in order to lead the jews out into the promise land
3) David - from a humble shepard to a King
4) Solomon - Super RICH & WISE
5) Joseph - became the egyptian's king right hand man
just to name a few.......
A tot to ponder,
Does it bring God any Glory to see his children in the pits? Do being humble necessarily that u have to live "as poor as a church mouse"? Wat does Jehovah Jireh mean to u? Wat does "sowing" into the Kingdom of God mean to u?
1. While Abraham was wealthy and powerful, it was not because he is "Father of all nations". Maybe you'd like to rephrase that?
2. Moses was a prince, yes, but after he struck the Egyptian dead to rescue the Hebrew slave .. he became a fugitive in the desert for 40? years. Wealth .. what wealth?! You think he had money hidden in anonymous Swiss accounts? Furthermore I disagree with your belief that he needed wealth for the exodus. You think what .. book shuttle bus to ferry the people? Order one lorry of 100-Plus or Gatorade for the walkathon?
3. Regarding David and Solomon, I have these verses from NIV Deu 17 for you:
David and Solomon did precisely that .. that's why the Davidic kingdom went into decline. Thus your example just show that, if anything, wealth stumbles believers. Furthermore, these verses suggest that God was not totally responsible for the 'wealth' of the kings, they could accumulate themselves and as shown, they had sinned in doing so.
The King
14 When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you and have taken possession of it and settled in it, and you say, "Let us set a king over us like all the nations around us," 15 be sure to appoint over you the king the LORD your God chooses. He must be from among your own brothers. Do not place a foreigner over you, one who is not a brother Israelite. 16 The king, moreover, must not acquire great numbers of horses for himself or make the people return to Egypt to get more of them, for the LORD has told you, "You are not to go back that way again." 17 He must not take many wives, or his heart will be led astray. He must not accumulate large amounts of silver and gold.
4. Does it bring God any Glory to see his children in the pits? Yes it does - literally. Remember Daniel and his friends? They were thrown into the pit - but with God's miraculous protection, they were unharmed and in the end glorified the God of Abraham to the pagans.
5. Jehovah Jireh means "God will provide". I believe it was first used during the sacrifice of Isaac. This, together with the example of Daniel, illustrated the importance of trust and faith, not God will make you wealthy. Here are two examples showing proper usage of Jehovah Jireh.
5.1. In campus crusade, to go for a mission trip, they have to raise money. To some members, they have to beg for money. It is a humbling experience. But have faith in God and trust that you are doing His work.
5.2. Mother Theresa ran an orphanage? in Calcutta last time. They are definitely not as "resourceful" as CHCSA, but have faith in God and live out His Word.
And please do not just quote examples of "rich" biblical figures. And please do not just use OT examples. You should explain why many of the NT figures were poor, like our dear Apostle Paul. By his own admission, he was poor. -
Excellent points!Originally posted by Icemoon:Sorry to disappoint you, but your reply does not rest on firm biblical foundation.
1. While Abraham was wealthy and powerful, it was not because he is "Father of all nations". Maybe you'd like to rephrase that?
2. Moses was a prince, yes, but after he struck the Egyptian dead to rescue the Hebrew slave .. he became a fugitive in the desert for 40? years. Wealth .. what wealth?! You think he had money hidden in anonymous Swiss accounts? Furthermore I disagree with your belief that he needed wealth for the exodus. You think what .. book shuttle bus to ferry the people? Order one lorry of 100-Plus or Gatorade for the walkathon?
3. Regarding David and Solomon, I have these verses from NIV Deu 17 for you:
The King
14 When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you and have taken possession of it and settled in it, and you say, "Let us set a king over us like all the nations around us," 15 be sure to appoint over you the king the LORD your God chooses. He must be from among your own brothers. Do not place a foreigner over you, one who is not a brother Israelite. 16 The king, moreover, [b]must not acquire great numbers of horses for himself or make the people return to Egypt to get more of them, for the LORD has told you, "You are not to go back that way again." 17 He must not take many wives, or his heart will be led astray. He must not accumulate large amounts of silver and gold.
David and Solomon did precisely that .. that's why the Davidic kingdom went into decline. Thus your example just show that, if anything, wealth stumbles believers. Furthermore, these verses suggest that God was not totally responsible for the 'wealth' of the kings, they could accumulate themselves and as shown, they had sinned in doing so.
4. Does it bring God any Glory to see his children in the pits? Yes it does - literally. Remember Daniel and his friends? They were thrown into the pit - but with God's miraculous protection, they were unharmed and in the end glorified the God of Abraham to the pagans.
5. Jehovah Jireh means "God will provide". I believe it was first used during the sacrifice of Isaac. This, together with the example of Daniel, illustrated the importance of trust and faith, not God will make you wealthy. Here are two examples showing proper usage of Jehovah Jireh.
5.1. In campus crusade, to go for a mission trip, they have to raise money. To some members, they have to beg for money. It is a humbling experience. But have faith in God and trust that you are doing His work.
5.2. Mother Theresa ran an orphanage? in Calcutta last time. They are definitely not as "resourceful" as CHCSA, but have faith in God and live out His Word.
And please do not just quote examples of "rich" biblical figures. And please do not just use OT examples. You should explain why many of the NT figures were poor, like our dear Apostle Paul. By his own admission, he was poor.
And please do not just quote examples of "rich" biblical figures. And please do not just use OT examples. You should explain why many of the NT figures were poor, like our dear Apostle Paul. By his own admission, he was poor.
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Really now? You mean that you have never told a white lie? if you have you have just violated one of the commandments. you have never thought about a woman lustfully? if you have you have just committed adultery.
Really ? However do u know the rich guy ? How do u know he did tell a white lie or thought of a woman lustfully ?If anyone wants to be rich, they can, they just have to work harder than most. I for one believe that everything is possible if you believe.
I have nothing against rich people. Did I ever claim I hate rich people WHy suddenly give me tis label ? I was only pointing out tat Jesus himself like people to donate their riches and claim it is a way for eternal life.When Yeshua said keep the commandments, you have to read it in the context of the culture, which was distinctly jewish.. the rich young man would have understood that keeping the commandments meant keeping ALL the commandments. Did Yeshua preach about all rich people? I don not think so, just that he used the example of that rich young ruler loving money more than he loved eternal life.
However the list jesus mentioned only mark a few of the commandments. Overall the conversation just list the above. Now u suddenly wanna put words into jesus mouth and say he meant moreThere were plenty mighty men of God who were Wealthy
Then please explain wat does he means
If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me
And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother[f] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.Does it bring God any Glory to see his children in the pits? Do being humble necessarily that u have to live "as poor as a church mouse"?
Then why does jesus ask the rich gy to donate all his possession ? Does he want to see his children in the pits ? Do being humble means he had to donate all the possession ?When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
Then again u r putting words into the pasage. In it is explicitly mention tat guy is rich. And tat is it. Then u defy all the language in it and claim it does not mans "rich" guy but guy tat respond in the same way the bible. Jesus also claim tat the rich people is hard to go to heaven. Then again u defy watthe bible had said and add in your own interpretation. Is the word "rich" so difficult to understand
'Rich Men' only refers to those who responded the way the young men in the biblical passage did. -
Originally posted by breytonhartge:please read the reply carefully. or have you failed your english....
Noooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Originally posted by Icemoon:you have failed your english.
Ah well.
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First of all, you have gone off topic. You mentioned that most people can keep the commandments that Yeshua spoke about, I am just alluding to the fact that all of us at one time or another have told a white lie... this is giving false testimony. Males being males would tend to ogle a good looking female so this in Yeshua's definition would be adultery. Nothing to do with the rich guy.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Really ? However do u know the rich guy ? How do u know he did tell a white lie or thought of a woman lustfully ?
But I do agree with what Vince said about this rich man's response, he is arrogant in saying that he can keep all the commandments. Only one person has ever kept all the commandments, that is Yeshua. You also forget that Yeshua is also God, so He would know the mans heart. -
this time I think you owe me an apology.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:Noooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ah well. -
he shall repent with a contrite heart.Originally posted by breytonhartge:this time I think you owe me an apology. -
I think MC explained this very clearly, it is about testing the man's heart and where he placed his security, in Yeshua or in his riches.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Then why does jesus ask the rich gy to donate all his possession ? Does he want to see his children in the pits ? Do being humble means he had to donate all the possession ?
I think if you read the whole of the new testament, you will also find this verse
Luke 18:29-30
29 So He said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, 30 who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life.”
This clearly shows that it was never Yeshua's intention to have the rich man give all his wealth away and leave him in the lurch.
This is clearly shown in the contrasting story of Zacchaeus.
Luke 19:8-9
8But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount."
9Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."
Zacchaeus too was a rich man, and had lots of wealth, but when he found Yeshua, he repented and showed where he truly put his trust and faith in. A point that MC had been trying to make to you since the start of this.